US coup in Venezuela

[biggytitbo]

It's the old tactic of covertly inducing a failed state, inducing panicked, desperate measures from its leaders to try and cope, then sitting back and pointing out what a mess it is as if you are some disinterested external party.

[Paul Calf]

"Murduro", though.

Murduro

[ZoyzaSorris]

A read through this gives one a terrible sense of deja vu. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

'These documents include:

Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.

CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government

National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.

[JohnnyCouncil]

BBC Newsnight's discussion went like this:

Newsnight: the country has an aids epidemic, huge rises in disease, no cancer treatment etc...
Expert: well that's because the country is embargoed, if these sanctions are lifted that would help.
N: How would that help get rid of him?
E: You won't get rid of him if he has the support of the army.
N: Bye

Not even subtle.

[JohnnyCouncil]

It's the old tactic of covertly inducing a failed state, inducing panicked, desperate measures from its leaders to try and cope, then sitting back and pointing out what a mess it is as if you are some disinterested external party.

Holding this back for after a no deal Brexit.

[ZoyzaSorris]

Of course you don't need to look back to Chile. Governments in Honduras, Paraguay and Brazil were all overthrown by quasi-legal means in soft coups over the last decade and a bit, but this also has major shades of an attempt at a Western hemisphere Syria situation, despite how badly that failed (though Venezuela is of course a democracy).

[kngen]

I'm annoyed at myself for being surprised at Trudeau throwing his lot in with Trump and his fascist pals. Those centrist cunts can't help but show their true colours eventually. Any gilets jaune in Montreal yet?

[Twed]

I'm annoyed at myself for being surprised at Trudeau throwing his lot in with Trump and his fascist pals. Those centrist cunts can't help but show their true colours eventually. Any gilets jaune in Montreal yet?

I get some enjoyment out of the cowardice of them having to weigh up the strategic benefit of being against Trump with the fact that a good wedge of their core beliefs and allegiances are the same thing with better presentation. Shame that countries need to be torn apart to reveal that, especially given that they will just be able to shake off the negativity that comes from this.

[ZoyzaSorris]

BBC busy playing the part of Pravda to the transatlantic military industrial complex as usual, always nice and sickening to see.

[Hundhoon]

Economic warfare has been waged on Venezuela. Unfortunately this is the unspoken tale of every country that tries to exist outside the capitalist system or outside the control of superpowers. They simply aren't allowed to survive, and when they fail capitalists then hail "look, socialism doesn't work!!" as though it ever had a fair run. And if Venezuela can't do it with its oil wealth, you wonder just how well the UK will cope, when the financial sector have no interest in entertaining the idea of Corbyn. Corbyn will be limited to moderate social democracy and still be called a communist and still face economic blackmail to remind everyone who is really in charge.

I bet you Maduro could win if all sides participated. Remember that due to the electoral process Presidential runoffs often come down to least worst. I have no hesitation in saying this US stooge would have his arse handed to him if he was brave enough to actually stand an election because Venezuelans despise America.

do better than Macron would.

Okay so it's entirely the U.S that is to blame..urgh god boring.they were the only country In the world that  had the type of resources to create a new model for socialism. They were blessed with the largest oil stock pile in the world.
They could have been a sort of Socialist Saudi Arabia.

What happened? Most countries would die for their resources. It's not just the US that it causing this

[Blumf]

What happened? Most countries would die for their resources. It's not just the US that it causing this

There's also the internal problem of the wealthy elite shunting all the money they can offshore, creating major currency, and thus trade, problems, as well as generally trying their best to disrupt anything the government does.

[KennyMonster]

Okay so it's entirely the U.S that is to blame..urgh god boring.

Yes good point, the U.S. has done this many times before which is a bit boring for us so lets not give a shit.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yes Hundhoon mate it is all simple and just like you describe

[mothman]

I don't regard the Chavez/Maduro regime through misty eyes as any great shakes. It's obvious that there's been some serious economic mismanagement involved in turning an Oman into a Somalie (metaphorically speaking), and it's not just down to the US not liking them or the Venezuelan middle classes having a bit of a grump. But at the same time, I don't know who the fuck this pretender to the throne is or what his claim to legitimacy might be, and the backing of the US and all the other right-wing incipient dictatorships around the world doesn't fill me with confidence (any more than Putin coming out on Maduro's side does). And now... the UK is potentially going to endorse Guaido. Well, that's just fucking peachy. Like we don't have enough problems in the world right now. Couldn't we just stay out of it? The Mitchell & Webb "Are we the baddies?" sketch is feeling more and more apt every day...

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Terrible analogy. It's worth having a glance at Venezuelan political history for context of how we ended up here, and further back than Chavez taking power.

[biggytitbo]

The regime change pyscopaths are using the fact Venezuela is in a mess to justify their regime change. The problem with that is the fact Venezuela is in a mess is actually an artefact, created by the regime change pyscopaths themselves specifically to justify their regime change. Also see - brexit is a mess, we must stop brexit, for a similar cynically engineered problem, reaction, solution situation.

[Flouncer]

problem, reaction, solution

I see what you did there, Ickey boi.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The regime change pyscopaths are using the fact Venezuela is in a mess to justify their regime change. The problem with that is the fact Venezuela is in a mess is actually an artefact, created by the regime change pyscopaths themselves specifically to justify their regime change. Also see - brexit is a mess, we must stop brexit, for a similar cynically engineered problem, reaction, solution situation.

Other countries demanding a sovereign country with an elected President holds elections in a timeframe of their choosing? It's outrageous. The opposition chose not to contest the last election? Why? Surely in such a basket case they'd win easily. But no, withdrawing was the simplest way to induce illegitimacy. Fuck democracy.

Has anyone pointed out that this utter hypocrisy cuts through the Tories dismissal of a general election?

[biggytitbo]

Yes, and Jean Claude Juncker is obviously an interdimensional lizard aswell. A pissed, gropey one at that.

[biggytitbo]

Other countries demanding a sovereign country with an elected President holds elections in a timeframe of their choosing? It's outrageous. The opposition chose not to contest the last election? Why? Surely in such a basket case they'd win easily. But no, withdrawing was the simplest way to induce illegitimacy. Fuck democracy.

Has anyone pointed out that this utter hypocrisy cuts through the Tories dismissal of a general election?

The thing is Maduro could be a deeply flawed leader, or even terrible, and It wouldn't matter in the slightest (we have plenty of those of our own) as its none of our business. But clearly most of his problems are the product of external forces anyway, not internal. Its the old Mafia racket - oh dear, your shop got all smashed up, I'm afraid we're going to have to take it over as you clearly aren't up to the job.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

If Maduro calls an election they will almost certainly stage a false flag act during the demos that both sides will hold, in efforts to ferment some sort of "popular" revolution, aided by some military unit they've paid off. Conspiratorial? Well it literally happened before, in Venezuela, within the last 20 years.

And yet I can't see what else Maduro can do now other than lean heavily on Bolivia and Cuba, China and Russia. What are they gonna do exactly...

I think he should call another election and bring forward the best new candidate in the party, and effectively give a timetable for stepping down. Better that than fascist coup.

[Paul Calf]

a similar cynically engineered problem, reaction, solution situation.

Can you really not see that this is what's going to happen after Brexit? Honestly and in good faith, can you not see this?

[biggytitbo]

I think the comparison is more towards the fact that brexit will almost certainly not happen now, because it's too difficult and the whole thing is such a mess. The point being, this mess was created by the very people who wanted to stop brexit happening all along.

If Maduro calls an election they will almost certainly stage a false flag act during the demos that both sides will hold, in efforts to ferment some sort of "popular" revolution, aided by some military unit they've paid off. Conspiratorial? Well it literally happened before, in Venezuela, within the last 20 years.

And yet I can't see what else Maduro can do now other than lean heavily on Bolivia and Cuba, China and Russia. What are they gonna do exactly...

I think he should call another election and bring forward the best new candidate in the party, and effectively give a timetable for stepping down. Better that than fascist coup.

This is why, despite all the obvious issues with Putin, Russia's role in the world (and currently to a lesser extent China) today is absolutely crucial to having a multipolar world order that isn't dominated by the single biggest mafia state (what's so laughable about that of course is that russia is always described in the West as a mafia state, despite the fact that term more suitably describes the US on a global scale)

[pancreas]

I tried to find out what was actually going on. Couldn't find anything that I felt I could trust. Came here, which I obviously should have done first.

Notwithstanding agreement with Biggy that US-led regime change should be unconditionally opposed, what is made of this? Seems the UN and Amnesty are very concerned with human rights abuses, and I tend to trust both those organisations. 8k extrajudicial executions is a lot in two years. Is there any reason to disbelieve those numbers?

[biggytitbo]

Amnesty International are a bit like the BBC in that both sides see themselves as biased against them, but like the BBC I think they a bit too often side with the establishment, pro western, pro NATO point of view, especially when it conviently coincides with the next regime change target.

[jobotic]

Were they mean about Putin?

Anyway, look at this bastion of democracy that's involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/26/elliott-abrams-venezuela-us-special-envoy

[Urinal Cake]

Guaidó, paraphrasing Neruda has said, 'They can cut a flower but they will not stop the Spring.'
Because the Arab Spring was a great success.

Hunthas accused Maduro of vote rigging with most evidence to the contrary.

[pcsjwgm]

Biggest buyers of Venezuelan oil are @ValeroEnergy & @Chevron. Refining heavy crude from #Venezuela supports great jobs in Gulf Coast.

For the sake of these U.S. workers I hope they will begin working with administration of President Guaido & cut off illegitimate Maduro regime.

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1088414772163461120

[ZoyzaSorris]

Guaidó, paraphrasing Neruda has said, 'They can cut a flower but they will not stop the Spring.'
Because the Arab Spring was a great success.

Yes, I saw that cropping up in the Guardian a few times. Bit rich for a right-wing US puppet coupmonger to try channeling someone who was an enemy (and alleged victim) of the right-wing US puppet coupmonger Pinochet.

[ZoyzaSorris]

I tried to find out what was actually going on. Couldn't find anything that I felt I could trust. Came here, which I obviously should have done first.

Notwithstanding agreement with Biggy that US-led regime change should be unconditionally opposed, what is made of this? Seems the UN and Amnesty are very concerned with human rights abuses, and I tend to trust both those organisations. 8k extrajudicial executions is a lot in two years. Is there any reason to disbelieve those numbers?

Would like a source for those numbers, seems incredibly suspect to describe deaths from the street violence of the kind that is regrettably commonplace across latin america as 'extrajudicial executions'.

Unfortunately both Amnesty (amongst many other western NGOs) and many organs of the UN are heavily compromised these days, victims of the modern US full-spectrum hybrid warfare paradigm of colour revolutions and faux-humanitarianism in place of the overt fascist military coups of yore. Its very sad really.

Of course, you can be sure if an outside power (say Russia?) was waging extreme economic warfare on the UK, sponsoring opposition leaders and recognising a fake parallel government you would likely see human rights here come under strain, too.

If Jez does make it into government and pursues any kind of independent foreign policy position you can be sure the US will start its destabilisation proceedings against us, too. Which is just another reason it is important for anyone on the left to stand firmly against this.