Students suspended over WhatsApp group

[Buelligan]

well duh I would blame them. blaming porn is a cop out. "rape culture" or extreme misogyny and whatever you want to call it wasn't born with porn. 
blaming it on a permissive society is not that smart either, it's just good old reverse-chronological snobbery. there are obviously less sexual assaults in a permissive society than in a conservative/victorian one.

As I alluded to upthread, I think "porn" is quite a broad brush term.  Focusing down a little, would you think that someone who watches huge (I know, what does huge mean) amounts of sadistic pornography where the victims are always women, would you think that they would be affected by it at all, would it colour their attitude towards women?

Porn's a funny thing, it's like cigs, there are people who just need it, want it, love it in their lives, like smoking.  But smoking's a pleasure, we don't need to pretend it does us good.  Why is it so vital to protect porn from any criticism?  Isn't it possible to enjoy it and acknowledge that it may, in the right circumstances, be harmful?

[Paul Calf]

a permissive society, a dumbed-down society, a narcissistic society

It's a Whitehousian renaissance. The Christian right spent 60 years trying to prove the connection between porn and sexual violence and in the end they had to blackmail Ted Bundy to get their headlines.

[Icehaven]

Porn's a funny thing, it's like cigs, there are people who just need it, want it, love it in their lives, like smoking.  But smoking's a pleasure, we don't pretend it does us good.  Why is it so vital to protect porn from any criticism?  Isn't it possible to enjoy it and acknowledge that it may, in the right circumstances, be harmful?

Quite. I love booze. Love it. I can still admit that it damages some people though.

[jobotic]

As I alluded to upthread, I think "porn" is quite a broad brush term.  Focusing down a little, would you think that someone who watches huge (I know, what does huge mean) amounts of sadistic pornography where the victims are always women, would you think that they would be affected by it at all, would it colour their attitude towards women?

Porn's a funny thing, it's like cigs, there are people who just need it, want it, love it in their lives, like smoking.  But smoking's a pleasure, we don't pretend it does us good.  Why is it so vital to protect porn from any criticism?  Isn't it possible to enjoy it and acknowledge that it may, in the right circumstances, be harmful?

You'd think it was possible wouldn't you? But you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead cocks.

[Buelligan]

I have quite a few of those in jars, I'll fetch my pliers.

[bgmnts]

Porn's a funny thing, it's like cigs, there are people who just need it, want it, love it in their lives, like smoking.  But smoking's a pleasure, we don't need to pretend it does us good.  Why is it so vital to protect porn from any criticism?  Isn't it possible to enjoy it and acknowledge that it may, in the right circumstances, be harmful?

For the record, i'm not meaning to protect porn from criticism, it's fucked up in many ways.
All i'm saying is that if you say porn influences people to have misogynistic attitudes to women, then you'd have to say that violent video games influence people to commit violence, an attitude which is laughed at.

[Paul Calf]

Porn's a funny thing, it's like cigs, there are people who just need it, want it, love it in their lives, like smoking.  But smoking's a pleasure, we don't need to pretend it does us good.

All i'm saying is that if you say porn influences people to have misogynistic attitudes to women, then you'd have to say that violent video games influence people to commit violence, an attitude which is laughed at.

Neither of these statements really stand up to any kind of scrutiny do they?

[Large Noise]

I started a reply saying exactly this so yours will do nicely! Also my original comment was actually directed at someone pondering why Tony and Gary laddism seemed to turn into openly nasty misogyny some time in the 2000s, and I suggested that growing up watching a lot of grim porn could have something to with it, not that it was wholly responsible. It's not about "blaming" porn, just acknowledging that it's likely to have had an impact on the thought processes of some young people who have grown up with it.

If you listen to Eminem's lyrics from about 1998-2001, he was simultaneously horrendously misogynistic and the biggest pop star in the world. And that was with a generation who'd never really had access to internet porn. He'd be cancelled to within an inch of his life if he tried that now, and it'd be the iphone generation first in with the pitchforks.

I don't know, I think it's probably the case that porn is misogynistic but that its cultural influence is massively outweighed by things like socia media giving a diverse range of people a platform. In the same way that Call of Duty encourages violence, but try getting anyone whose hobby is playing PS4 to go storm the Normandy beaches.

[bgmnts]

Why not? Surely video games/films/tv/music have to be held to the same standard?

I mean fuck me listen to rap songs from back in my day (yes I am old as fuck) and Jesus I am ashamed to have liked that as a nipper.

[Buelligan]

For the record, i'm not meaning to protect porn from criticism, it's fucked up in many ways.
All i'm saying is that if you say porn influences people to have misogynistic attitudes to women, then you'd have to say that violent video games influence people to commit violence, an attitude which is laughed at.

Being absolutely honest and why not?  I do think that things that evoke or elicit strong reactions in the consumer can be harmful in the right (wrong) circumstances.  I think that's fucking obvious.

I think a lot of people get very uptight about these things because they're frightened someone is going to take their cigs away or call them something bad so they just put up a wall of adamant denial (but reality continues to exist on both sides of that wall).

[Icehaven]

For the record, i'm not meaning to protect porn from criticism, it's fucked up in many ways.
All i'm saying is that if you say porn influences people to have misogynistic attitudes to women, then you'd have to say that violent video games influence people to commit violence, an attitude which is laughed at.

You don't have to say that at all. Committing violence is way more rare (in our current society anyway) and complex than committing misogynistic thoughts. That's why I said it was a different issue.

[bgmnts]

You don't have to say that at all. Committing violence is way more rare (in our current society anyway) and complex than committing misogynistic thoughts.

I'd argue these cunts having disgusting views against women (for which maybe exposure to porn is a cause) is probably less damaging than, say, some cunts shooting up kids in a school (for which maybe exposure to violent video games/films is a cause), even if it is more rare.

Anyway, i'd say some cunts will ALWAYS have horrid, misogynistic attitudes, regardless of how much misogynistic art they consume, be it rap music, the sexual exploitation of women on HBO shows, pornography, whatever.

But that's obvious everyone knows that. I just think maybe pornography might be a bit of a red herring here. 

[Buelligan]

Yeah, it was quite an interesting red herring though.  So all's well.

[chveik]

I think a lot of people get very uptight about these things because they're frightened someone is going to take their cigs away or call them something bad so they just put up a wall of adamant denial (but reality continues to exist on both sides of that wall).

uptight?! do you think that making things personal will make you win an argument?
the argument wasn't really about porn in itself anyway, it was about the fallacy that consists in blaming porn when these types of events occur.

[Icehaven]

I'd argue these cunts having disgusting views against women (for which maybe exposure to porn is a cause) is probably less damaging than, say, some cunts shooting up kids in a school (for which maybe exposure to violent video games/films is a cause), even if it is more rare.

Eh? You just said video games influencing violence was laughed at?

[bgmnts]

Eh? You just said video games influencing violence was laughed at?

It is isn't it? Rightly or wrongly.

Either porn influencing misogynistic attitudes should be disregarded and laughed at in the same way or video games/films/music/tv influencing negative behaviours be taken more seriously.

[Crisps?]

Why is it so vital to protect porn from any criticism?

Guilt about watching/enjoying it. The people who try to defend porn here know that women being choked, spat at, slapped and otherwise essentially depicted as being raped doesn't quite square with being progressive, so they have to pretend it's a free speech issue and criticism of porn is somehow "right-wing".

Nothing people see ever has an effect on their subsequent actions or point of view, of course, which is why nobody in history has ever spent any time or money on advertising or propaganda.

[Buelligan]

uptight?! do you think that making things personal will make you win an argument?
the argument wasn't really about porn in itself anyway, it was about the fallacy that consists in blaming porn when these types of events occur.

Acknowledging that "people get very uptight" is not being personal.  "People" can include the speaker, it can exclude the listener, the whole thing's entirely voluntary (and a simple factual observation, as you are confirming). 

And I am not trying to "win an argument", I'm just talking to "people" about something I find mildly interesting on my break between shifts, if that's OK (even if it isn't, frankly, I do not give one fuck even if it's being filmed).

[Brundle-Fly]

https://thetab.com/uk/2018/03/28/boys-this-is-how-you-should-behave-while-getting-a-blow-job-by-girls-63214

The one really surprising tip missing from that list of rules is the men's hygiene issue.

[Icehaven]

It is isn't it? Rightly or wrongly.

Either porn influencing misogynistic attitudes should be disregarded and laughed at in the same way or video games/films/music/tv influencing negative behaviours be taken more seriously.

I disagree, I really don't see a correlation. I sort of see where you're coming from but I think the motivation to commit a violent act is just too complicated and has too many other factors than having a crap attitude towards a particular section of society.

[checkoutgirl]

a permissive society, a dumbed-down society, a narcissistic society

I blame society.

[checkoutgirl]

well duh I would blame them. blaming porn is a cop out. "rape culture" or extreme misogyny and whatever you want to call it wasn't born with porn. 
blaming it on a permissive society is not that smart either, it's just good old reverse-chronological snobbery. there are obviously less sexual assaults in a permissive society than in a conservative/victorian one.

Agree. What happened to personal responsibility?

[bgmnts]

I disagree, I really don't see a correlation. I sort of see where you're coming from but I think the motivation to commit a violent act is just too complicated and has too many other motivating factors than having a crap attitude towards a particular section of society.

That's fair enough but okay then even just focusing on attitudes towards women in other media besides porn. Surely film/television/music should be under the same scrutiny, maybe more so, as they are more pervasive than porn. I have watched a lot of TV shows where women exist to be raped without real consequence, women are still used as sex objects in films and music and I am sure in many genres of music women are demeaned abysmally.

Shouldn't they be focused on a lot more? I'd say they are much more going to affect a teenage boy a lot more than porn is, as prevalent and accessible as porn is nowadays.

Just my thoughts, I have a small stake in this as porn is my sexual outlet so if porn becomes highly regulated or banned I be fucked. It's not a hill worthy of dying on but still, I think everything should be held to the same scrutiny.

[BlodwynPig]

well duh I would blame them. blaming porn is a cop out. "rape culture" or extreme misogyny and whatever you want to call it wasn't born with porn. 
blaming it on a permissive society is not that smart either, it's just good old reverse-chronological snobbery. there are obviously less sexual assaults in a permissive society than in a conservative/victorian one.

How can something so wrong taste soooo good?

[chveik]

How can something so wrong taste soooo good?

mate I don't even watch the stuff anymore.

[Dex Sawash]

[tag] funk rush to justice [/tag]

[Flouncer]

Guilt about watching/enjoying it. The people who try to defend porn here know that women being choked, spat at, slapped and otherwise essentially depicted as being raped doesn't quite square with being progressive, so they have to pretend it's a free speech issue and criticism of porn is somehow "right-wing".

Nothing people see ever has an effect on their subsequent actions or point of view, of course, which is why nobody in history has ever spent any time or money on advertising or propaganda.

Whenever the issue surfaces on here, you get the same vehement refusal to acknowledge that it could ever be remotely harmful to anybody.

[BlodwynPig]

For the record, i'm not meaning to protect porn from criticism, it's fucked up in many ways.
All i'm saying is that if you say porn influences people to have misogynistic attitudes to women, then you'd have to say that violent video games influence people to commit violence, an attitude which is laughed at.

Hmmm.

[Twed]

I say this with the proviso that I have no idea if Internet porn makes this sort of thing better or worse*, and no strong opinions either way:

The main voices trying to search for a solution to why boys are like this were (I'm fairly certain) never boys, so I can understand why you're looking for a reason for this behaviour. I think the reality of it would break your hearts. Most boys (and many grown men) are horrible, this sort of thing is innate and will occur as soon as the concept of rape is learned and they find a welcoming group for treating the opposite sex as ants under a magnifying glass.

_{* If I had to commit to an opinion it would be that it can be either harmful or therapeutic depending on the consumer. A lot of porn is very directly hurtful to women. It seems that it's becoming more empowering and controlled by the stars themselves, which is great.}

[BlodwynPig]

I blame society.

It is my belief. Society is warped beyond repair. Get back to your allotments, your isolationism, your despair and make Blodwyn HAPPY AGAIN.