Fun Liam Neeson Anecdote [split topic] [merged]

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Good thing I didn't suggest that then

In what actual, tangible, measurable way is what Liam Neeson said useful? How does it actually help to fight racism in an actual, non-abstract sense?

[TrenterPercenter]

Good thing I didn't suggest that then

In what actual, tangible, measurable way is what Liam Neeson said useful? How does it actually help to fight racism in an actual, non-abstract sense?

I don't know what you mean by non-abstract sense? Race is arguably an abstract concept and whilst your Richard Spencers might argue against that, how race is dealt with in the social world we inhabit is completely abstract (perhaps you just don't know what abstract means) either way why is something that is abstract automatically unable to be useful?

Sorry but sounds like you are talking bullshit mate.

I think you mean "tell me how it helps" I tell you and you say, no not like that.

I think Barnes was pretty clear and we minded about what he said, maybe perhaps start with what your problem is with what he said?  Is it you don't believe that the socio-political history of the west has engendered racist attitudes into people? and where do you think racism comes from?

[gib]

Barnes didn't seem hysterical or flapping to me, just passionate.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I don't know what you mean by non-abstract sense? Race is arguably an abstract concept and whilst your Richard Spencers might argue against that, how race is dealt with in the social world we inhabit is completely abstract (perhaps you just don't know what abstract means) either way why is something that is abstract automatically unable to be useful?

Sorry but sounds like you are talking bullshit mate.

I think you mean "tell me how it helps" I tell you and you say, no not like that.

I think Barnes was pretty clear and we minded about what he said, maybe perhaps start with what your problem is with what he said?  Is it you don't believe that the socio-political history of the west has engendered racist attitudes into people? and where do you think racism comes from?

No, I agree with that, I just don't see how Neeson has so commendably elucidated it. That seems like a stretch to me.

'Race' is an abstract idea, but 'Racism' is not an abstract thing because it has a genuinely detrimental material impact on people's lives. How does Neeson's comment help to alleviate this state of affairs? In an actual, measurable sense?

[TrenterPercenter]

Weird I heard James O'Brien making some snarky comments towards Barnes today as well, seems weird, as he nailed it.  Also the bit when the suit-prick started lying about reading Churchill's biography and said he was very much a man of his age was great.

"Hmm yes John but can I just say i've been reading this rather excellent autobiography about Adolf Hitler called Mein Kampf and it turns out he was a right genocidal cockend, still you have to say John he was very much a man of his age....should that make him any less impressive?.....tsk tsk boys will be boys ay John? John?"

[jobotic]

So the woman who was raped? Do we reckon she's happy to be a prop for Neeson's confession? Or that she exists at all?

[biggytitbo]

The only thing Barnes should be taken to task for is saying Neeson deserves a medal for wanting to kill a black man. No such medal exists John, perhaps in the US but not here.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

probably here as well to be fair

[TrenterPercenter]

No, I agree with that, I just don't see how Neeson has so commendably elucidated it. That seems like a stretch to me.

'Race' is an abstract idea, but 'Racism' is not an abstract thing because it has a genuinely detrimental material impact on people's lives. How does Neeson's comment help to alleviate this state of affairs? In an actual, measurable sense?

You think that racism that is based on race isn't an abstract idea, look i think we just keep things simple and stop messing around with semantics, it isn't necessary or helpful and its also insincere and actually much harder for you to claim any measurable sense of him not saying it. Just keep it simple.

How does Liam Neeson telling a story of him reflecting on a racist thought he had and realising it is wrong do anything to stop people racist?

Well it's obvious because it suggests to people that their thoughts are not always rational, that emotions especially fear are powerful and can be manipulated by our environments and that "racists" can be wrong.

What is weird is your inability to articulate why you cannot see that, as I said just explain how racism exists in the world otherwise? that can give us an idea where you are coming from.

If a parent raises a kid to believe black people are dangerous, they internalise it, get older and then through experience realise that this isn't true, realise their parents were racist and feel ashamed of the way they felt previously. Then there is a context to their previous racism that involves their environment i.e. their parents and therefore directs focus towards the actual causation of their previous individualistic racism.

[king_tubby]

So the woman who was raped? Do we reckon she's happy to be a prop for Neeson's confession? Or that she exists at all?

She's dead, apparently. But yeah, whilst concentrating on the race element, we're kind of ignoring him trying to turn himself in to the victim, and ignoring the agency of the survivor.

[TrenterPercenter]

No fair point anyone talking about their dead friends awful experience and how it made them feel is obviously victim shaming and therefore cancelled.

[king_tubby]

Not really what I'm saying but I'm knackered and watching the football so may return to it tomorrow.

Or may not.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Well it's obvious because it suggests to people that their thoughts are not always rational, that emotions especially fear are powerful and can be manipulated by our environments and that "racists" can be wrong.

I'm sorry but that just seems like a platitude at best. There is racism built into the very foundations and economic structures of our society, leading to a social and economic apartheid even in supposedly liberal countries. At that point it's no longer some phantasmic thing of the psyche to be fended off by film stars, it's an actual tangible menace that requires real structural critique and change to address. To actually fight back rhetorically, you're going to need something better than that

[biggytitbo]

Barnes should turn his anti Churchill diatribe into a rap like the 1990 world cup song, for wider public consumption. It's good to see the sea change on Churchill, certainly one relic of our past Empire mythology that really does need revaulating.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Barnes was 100% correct on Churchill, even if he did essentially suggest that "if Churchill's okay with you then Neeson should be okay" which is not a good argument because Churchill is definitely not okay

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm sorry but that just seems like a platitude at best

Not really, I mean I'm only pretty much an expert in human behaviour and research how humans think and behave for a living but then what do I know.   Perhaps read "Behave" by Robert Salpolsky (he is the leading biopsychologist and primatologist in the world and talks about how environments and brains react to produce and shape violent responses).

Liam Neeson hasn't just solved racism, that's not "it" and other attempts at reducing racism are available and to be considered.

Btw are you going to actually provide any basis or explanation for anything you are saying or are you just going keep shifting that burden on to me whilst worrying about things being too abstract yet sharing with us your "feels"?

[Monsieur Verdoux]

There is racism built into the very foundations and economic structures of our society, leading to a social and economic apartheid even in supposedly liberal countries. At that point it's no longer some phantasmic thing of the psyche to be fended off by film stars, it's an actual tangible menace that requires real structural critique and change to address. To actually fight back rhetorically, you're going to need something better than that

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm sorry but that just seems like a platitude at best. There is racism built into the very foundations and economic structures of our society, leading to a social and economic apartheid even in supposedly liberal countries. At that point it's no longer some phantasmic thing of the psyche to be fended off by film stars, it's an actual tangible menace that requires real structural critique and change to address. To actually fight back rhetorically, you're going to need something better than that

Eh?

Who said it was phantasmic?....oh yeah you, for the purpose of this point that doesn't make any sense.  Barnes is saying the opposite and Neesons phantasmic experience is qualified by his rationalisation of it afterwards.

John Barnes went on TV and spoke to a hundreds of thousands (probably millions later through youtube) essentially about how racists become racists because of the things you just said you agree with whilst you spoke about it to 4 people on CAB, badly.

Real simple finish these sentences.

Liam Neeson made racism in the world worse because....

John Barnes responding about Liam Neeson made racism in the world worse because....

without decontextualising either event or making up things that they said.


EDIT: btw fuck Neeson I don't know what his game is and I very much doubt Barnes gives a fuck either he just wants as you seem to acknowledge use it as a means to talk about the bigger picture.  I think legitimate questions are about this thing about Neeson asking about the mans race but this pre-woke racist Neeson that is publicly separating himself from.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I never said either of them made racism in the world worse. At all. Whatsoever. Now who's making things up?

[TrenterPercenter]

I never said either of them made racism in the world worse. At all. Whatsoever. Now who's making things up?

I know! (wtf?!) I said finish these sentences because you have to/should make some tangible claim on their actions which you are unwilling to do rather than to allude that isn't "enough", like we had one shot to take down racism today and these clowns wasted it, whilst demanding non-abstracted tangible evidence of whether what has been said reduced racism.

No-one needs your approval or needs to heed your demand for the tangible when you give no tangible information yourself.

At a guess you are basically bitching and spinning on a pin head, but why? for what purpose?

[Monsieur Verdoux]

No I don't think we had one shot to bring down racism today, I obviously don't think that, and I think you're wasting my time by continually misrepresenting what I'm saying

[TrenterPercenter]

but you are not saying anything

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I'm saying that I don't know how you can make a definitive statement on the usefulness of Neeson's remarks either way, and therefore it seems like a stretch to say that he deserves a medal. That's it. Disagree if you want

[chveik]

Not really, I mean I'm only pretty much an expert in human behaviour and research how humans think and behave for a living but then what do I know.   Perhaps read "Behave" by Robert Salpolsky (he is the leading biopsychologist and primatologist in the world and talks about how environments and brains react to produce and shape violent responses).

that's just an authority argument.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

i should learn never to fuck with the STEM guys, there's always a lot going on there

[TrenterPercenter]

that's just an authority argument.

Absolutely, but I was getting sick and tired of someone going on about "tangible measurable outcomes" when that does not work in such strict senses in human behaviour......because there are several highly complex systems involved in the stimulation-response outcome process that can be understood in entirety by isolated the tangible parts of it.

It's nonsense.


There is an implication that reflection and rationalisation impulsive thoughts and emotions isn't a tangible measurable useful strategy for reducing racism.....when it arguable is and with its foundational theory already used in therapuatic approaches like CBT.  I don't see why we should accept Monsiuers appeal to authority that his assessment of this utility is worth anything, not when they are not even bothering to explain it to the standards they demand of others.

Put it in the context of a radicalised person and we don't need this discussion, we can clearly see that the person radicalised sharing their deradicalisation is useful (do I need to explain vicarious learning and influence, theory of mind also?), this is a less extreme version of that for all intents and purposes.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I don't see why we should accept Monsiuers appeal to authority

i didn't make an appeal to authority, you did

[TrenterPercenter]

i should learn never to fuck with the STEM guys, there's always a lot going on there

No just be willing to critique your own position and use opportunities when discussing things with others to do that rather than retreating into a little ball of curt replies in the absences of being able to defend your own position.

All I asked you do to was explain your position, you might be right and I might be wrong but you haven't been able to articulate why that might be the case.

[TrenterPercenter]

i didn't make an appeal to authority, you did

Yeah I've explained what I meant by that quite clearly.  Everyone can read it so I'm not sure why you think just quoting it out of context and ignoring everything else is a good look.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

What authority did I appeal to? I never declared myself an expert on anything.

I think that the divided reaction to Neeson's comments, with lots of professed discomfort from the black community for so publicly waving around the spectre of racially motivated violence, goes to show that his comments have done as much harm as good. Therefore, impossible to say whether they have actually been constructive in a positive way or not. That's it. I also think racism exists in economic and class structures, and so it's reductive to consider it solely in terms of behavioural psychology.