Ant and Dec cancelled [split topic]

[gilbertharding]

Harry Enfield there.

There's a difference (well, there used to be... perhaps there isn't any more) between using make-up to do an impersonation of a specific person, and 'blacking up'.

What about Papa Lazarou?

[gilbertharding]

yes, but that was based on a real incident that happened. In the All Priests Show IIRC ,and in show it was supposed to be ridiculous and offensive.

Mate, Father Ted isn't a documentary.

[canadagoose]

What about Papa Lazarou?

CANCELLED

[Mister Six]

Shooting Stars A Team sketch: Cancelled
Bo Selecta: Multiple cancellations
Chris Morris as Fur-q: Cancelled
Chris Morris as Sukie Bapswent: Double cancelled

Am I going to be cancelled if I say that Fur-Q and Matt Lucas's Mr T ought to be acceptable (especially the latter) because they're not actually mocking black people, and in the latter case is just accurately representing a person's appearance?

The answer is no, because nobody's head of me, but still.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Ant and Dec have never exactly been comic trailblazers, this would just have been them responding to/copying Bo Selecta, Little Britain and others. Pretty indefensible even then if we're honest, but the culture of the time had newly legitimised it.

It's certainly more outrageous that ITV have welcomed a failed child murderer back with open arms.

I think there's a massive difference between using a black mask/make-up to caricature a specific black celebrity, when you use make up and masks to make a caricature of all celebrities and using make up and masks to make a caricature of 'generic jamacian lady'.

[Kelvin]

Am I going to be cancelled if I say that Fur-Q and Matt Lucas's Mr T ought to be acceptable (especially the latter) because they're not actually mocking black people, and in the latter case is just accurately representing a person's appearance?

The answer is no, because nobody's head of me, but still.

No I think you're right, although for slightly different reasons. Morris, Vic and Bob, and Lucas and Williams have always played all (or most) of their own characters, so while it still feels a bit uncomfortable at points, I feel like it's the obvious alternative to not having any non-white main characters in those shows, and so long as those characters aren't mean spirited or racist caricatures, I think it's probably, maybe, possibly okay.

In contrast, Ting Tong was a joyless, racist caricature, and these Ant and Dec characters didn't actually need to be Asian. There's just a difference in purpose and intent in these examples.       

[Twed]

I sort-of agree, but I don't really feel like saying "Well actually it's like this..." when people who are black say that blackface is always unacceptable.

What I feel easier to settle with is "they had no malice doing that in the 90s. Standards were different. They didn't know better, I didn't know better. They're not doubling down on it today, we've all grown".

[Kelvin]

I sort-of agree, but I don't really feel like saying "Well actually it's like this..." when people who are black say that blackface is always unacceptable.

Nor do I. I'm not telling anyone else how they should feel, or what they should think. I understand that for many people in those groups, and many not in them, there are good reasons why they will disagree with me. I'm just expressing my own conflicted opinion on the matter, and my reasons. I'm not saying that everyone else should bow to my wisdom, or that there's any kind of universal truth about this stuff. 

[Twed]

Sure. That wasn't my implication, btw. I just meant that "I can't settle on wot i personally reckon because here's people who know better telling me better".

[Mister Six]

I sort-of agree, but I don't really feel like saying "Well actually it's like this..." when people who are black say that blackface is always unacceptable.

What I feel easier to settle with is "they had no malice doing that in the 90s. Standards were different. They didn't know better, I didn't know better. They're not doubling down on it today, we've all grown".

Well that's a better stance, dammit.

[thenoise]

Am I going to be cancelled if I say that Fur-Q and Matt Lucas's Mr T ought to be acceptable (especially the latter) because they're not actually mocking black people, and in the latter case is just accurately representing a person's appearance?

The answer is no, because nobody's head of me, but still.

Fur Q is definitely a caricature, although of a 'rapper' rather than a 'black person'. He is very stupid and glorifies violence and sex to a ludicrous and self destructive degree. Rappers tend to be black. Especially back then. So it was a bit of a racist caricature.

Don't care that much as the whole Music TV section is amazing, but I doubt he (or anyone) would attempt anything like that today, at least without somehow subverting it.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It was satirising a movement wasn't it? Back when the only white Rapper's were outside that movement like Vanilla Ice. I agree post Eminem and people like Stitches who definitely aren't just 'studio gangsta's' it would be well wrong.

[Kelvin]

Sure. That wasn't my implication, btw. I just meant that "I can't settle on wot i personally reckon because here's people who know better telling me better".

I don't know if I accept that reasoning, tbh. I obviously believe that people should weigh very heavily the opinions of any minority group when considering these types of issue, not least because they live and face these issues every day, but I also don't believe that there ever is a singular opinion on these kinds of matters. Some black people will not agree that blackface is ALWAYS wrong, regardless of context. Others will - and that's perfectly understandable. Plus, the reasons given will vary massively. 

I think there's a difference between having conflicted opinions on a subject, knowing that you aren't directly affected by the issue, heavily weighing the varied opinions of those who are, and someone who just stubbornly, arrogantly insists they're right and everyone else else should just grow up and accept their opinion on the matter. Thorny issues around comedy/irony/offense aren't unique to any one group, and even though I'm not black (for example), I am bisexual (as another example), and my principles and opinions on these issues are, I hope, fairly consistent across all these types of discussion, including the depiction of sexuality.     

All this said, I really would emphasise that I'm very conflicted on the issue, and I'm not saying that I strongly believe it's okay in the examples I gave above. I just don't believe there is a singular "black consensus", or, as I said before, a universal truth around what is or isn't acceptable, and why. 

[Captain Z]

Cancelled.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I don't know if I accept that reasoning, tbh. I obviously believe that people should weigh very heavily the opinions of any minority group when considering these types of issue, not least because they live and face these issues every day, but I also don't believe that there ever is a singular opinion on these kinds of matters. Some black people will not agree that blackface is ALWAYS wrong, regardless of context. Others will - and that's perfectly understandable. Plus, the reasons given will vary massively. 

I think there's a difference between having conflicted opinions on a subject, knowing that you aren't directly affected by the issue, heavily weighing the varied opinions of those who are, and someone who just stubbornly, arrogantly insists they're right and everyone else else should just grow up and accept their opinion on the matter. Thorny issues around comedy/irony/offense aren't unique to any one group, and even though I'm not black (for example), I am bisexual (as another example), and my principles and opinions on these issues are, I hope, fairly consistent across all these types of discussion, including the depiction of sexuality.     

All this said, I really would emphasise that I'm very conflicted on the issue, and I'm not saying that I strongly believe it's okay in the examples I gave above. I just don't believe there is a singular "black consensus", or, as I said before, a universal truth around what is or isn't acceptable, and why. 

'black twitter' is often a fairly unified voice. People often take it's opinion on something and use it elsewhere.

There's definitely cases of where the US's unique version of institutionalised racism is applied to other countries assuming it's the same there. Britain has its own flavour of it, some parts are the same and some aren't.

[chveik]

It was satirising a movement wasn't it? Back when the only white Rapper's were outside that movement like Vanilla Ice. I agree post Eminem and people like Stitches who definitely aren't just 'studio gangsta's' it would be well wrong.

he did caricature Eminem in Brass Eye too (in the special)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC8s2OahR-Q

[Twed]

I don't know if I accept that reasoning, tbh. I obviously believe that people should weigh very heavily the opinions of any minority group when considering these types of issue, not least because they live and face these issues every day, but I also don't believe that there ever is a singular opinion on these kinds of matters.

There doesn't need to be. It's pretty easy to tell when something is massively upsetting to a huge part of society, so maybe it's time to move on from those jokes. Blackface isn't a way of life for anybody, there aren't black and white minstrels anymore. It's easy for absolutely everybody to give up blackface.

[Mister Six]

he did caricature Eminem in Brass Eye too (in the special)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC8s2OahR-Q

While dressed as Fred Durst, for some reason.

[jamiefairlie]

So what do you do if you want to impersonate a real person for satirical reasons and they happen to be black? Just take all their other traits- hair, voice, clothing but ignore facial appearance? When they do white people they use makeup or prosthetics to look like them e.g an older person, but that's ok?

[Sebastian Cobb]

There doesn't need to be. It's pretty easy to tell when something is massively upsetting to a huge part of society, so maybe it's time to move on from those jokes. Blackface isn't a way of life for anybody, there aren't black and white minstrels anymore. It's easy for absolutely everybody to give up blackface.

Which society though, ahhh?

There's those videos of that Japanese bloke blacking up and that Greek woman playing Stevie Wonder, and it feels really wrong, as it should coming from the vantage point of societies that massively profited from slavery and colonisation, and also had shite like the minstrels, but is it perhaps more innocent impersonation in places that didn't do that? Of course some euro cultures do have form for casual racism like.

[Twed]

Which society though, ahhh?

Any society that you interact with?

I think there's a middle-ground between sending Bob Mortimer to prison and saying "NO! I LIKE IT!" when a black person asks you not to offend them. I don't know where this idea that you need to come up with a set rule that magically satisfies all of society. There's no problem to be solved, so just settle on not doing things that target a race when considerable numbers of that race have said it's racist. Fuck...

[Sebastian Cobb]

Well you are quite good at doing the ex-pat gone native thing of talking at people from Britain with specifically American takes.

[Twed]

You've turned into the people defending Robinsons Jam gollywog dolls.

[jamiefairlie]

The ERG?

[Mr Banlon]

Present day whiteface  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lasD5hMvVQ

[Twed]

Well you are quite good at doing the ex-pat gone native thing of talking at people from Britain with specifically American takes.

Can you please back up your assertion that it's universally fine to wear blackface in the UK please. I am a little bored today and would love to see somebody pointlessly dying on the hill of "taking offense to blackface is a purely American curiosity".

[jamiefairlie]

Yeah I don't think it is but I do think that it's way more in your face in "Anglo" countries than elsewhere.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Can you please back up your assertion that it's universally fine to wear blackface in the UK please. I am a little bored today and would love to see somebody pointlessly dying on the hill of "taking offense to blackface is a purely American curiosity".

That's not what I asserted is it? Please try not to strawman me.

[jamiefairlie]

Even Western Europe is less bothered about it than english speaking countries.

[Twed]

That's not what I asserted is it? Please try not to strawman me.

Yes, I too would back down after getting into this mess.