Brexit Thread Six: A Gaping Homage To Brextus Propertius

[jobotic]

Having huge swathes of governance back up for grabs after being off the table for decades will force politicians to engage with the public whether they like it or not, and it won't just be PR and TIG style platitudes, it will be fundamental matters of substance because suddenly they will be directly responsible for it again.

I happy side effect of this view is that it lets the Tories off the hook for their policies that are killing people and destroying lives and anything of value in this country. They're not directly responsible are they, it was the EU, a bigger boy.

[NoSleep]

He's the leader of an opposition with no leverage whatsoever because of electoral calculus. It's time to stop denying this and work out what to do about it. The only option I can see is a second referendum to break the deadlock but I really don't think that's any kind of solution.

I think it's clear that the Tories were desperately going to clutch on to power by their fingertips whatever happened. Any vote of no confidence would have relied on rebel Tories to see it through, which I have no idea could happen. I would say the fear certain people have of a Corbyn led government (including the no-place-left-to-run-to defectors) is having some leverage.

[Replies From View]

Nobody's doing referendums over anything of any substance ever again after what happened last time unless they are legally obliged to.

Oh yeah when the wealthiest and most corrupt individuals in society completed the most audacious power-grab in living memory whilst successfully selling it as a win for the poorest and most disenfranchised.

I imagine they'd never want to pull anything like that again.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Oh yeah when the wealthiest and most corrupt individuals in society completed the most audacious power-grab in living memory whilst successfully selling it as a win for the poorest and most disenfranchised.

I imagine they'd never want to pull anything like that again.

You can imagine that they'd like to, but they know all too well what happens when a government lose control of the narrative and the public just want to last out against the establishment.

[Replies From View]

You can imagine that they'd like to, but they know all too well what happens when a government lose control of the narrative and the public just want to last out against the establishment.

They just need to continually lie to the public over at least a decade about what "the establishment" means.

[biggytitbo]

Sounds like the Tiggers have forced Corbyn's hand and they're going to back a 2nd referendum.


The way out begins to open up.

[JohnnyCouncil]

I'm not getting too excited, the who and how elements still need to be understood, better than all this purge nonsense.

[Howj Begg]

Corbinator:

Faisal Islam
✔
@faisalislam

NEW - Corbyn to tell PLP that Labour will support an amendment on a referendum: "in line with our conference policy, we are committed to also putting forward or supporting an amendment in favour of a public vote to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit being forced on the country."

350
5:30 PM - Feb 25, 2019

Corbyn gets it.

[ToneLa]

Glad Corbo is playing his hand. Glad that this is the hand he's playing!

[Replies From View]

"Major shift".  Except it isn't, is it?  They're just behaving as if they haven't read or understood the promises made at conference:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-party-referendum-new-jeremy-corbyn-eu-mps-amendment-vote-a8796556.html

Fucking sick of this spin.

[JohnnyCouncil]

Does anybody know how / if this can be implemented? For example parliament votes for a second referendum (and presumably an extension) can't the Goverment just offer a no deal / May's deal referendum?

[Zetetic]

Depends what - if anything - Parliament will vote for. A motion will define the terms of the referendum.

(and presumably an extension)

A request for an extension, anyway.

[JohnnyCouncil]

Thanks, that makes sense. Interesting to see if the Indies vote for it, presumably they will.

[Johnny Yesno]

"Major shift".  Except it isn't, is it?  They're just behaving as if they haven't read or understood the promises made at conference:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-party-referendum-new-jeremy-corbyn-eu-mps-amendment-vote-a8796556.html

Fucking sick of this spin.

It's irritating, yes, but if Corbyn has had his hand 'forced', like biggy says, perhaps the less rabid brexiters won't hate him.

[biggytitbo]

I think this from new forum favourite Grace Blakely is about right https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1100120288497491969?s=19

The only short term impact this will have is destroying the IG (good).

The only long term impact is that Labour will go into the next election as the party that tried to stop Brexit (good if you're a Tory).

But I suspect those who got us here will be long gone by then.

[idunnosomename]

I only don't want a second ref because I think leave will win again

[SpiderChrist]

"NEW - Corbyn to tell PLP that Labour will support an amendment on a referendum: "in line with our conference policy, we are committed to also putting forward or supporting an amendment in favour of a public vote to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit being forced on the country."

So it's May's Brexit, or Corbyn's Brexit. Have I interpreted that correctly?

[biggytitbo]

I only don't want a second ref because I think leave will win again

Whereas I wouldn't mind a second referendum because I think leave will win again. I mean take the backlash that lead to leave winning first time and times it by 10 and add in a dose of betrayal narrative too and any poll leads remain have would be reversed again I reckon.


That's why the People's Vote/FBPE are such a liability to remain (indeed it might very well be the best chance of leaving now) , they're so inept and staggeringly out of touch they genuinely see a 2nd referendum as simply a synonym for remaining when I think they are very sorely mistaken.

[jobotic]

Whereas I wouldn't mind a second referendum because I think leave will win again. I mean take the backlash that lead to leave winning first time and times it by 10 and add in a dose of betrayal narrative too and any poll leads remain have would be reversed again I reckon.


That's why the People's Vote/FBPE are such a liability to remain (indeed it might very well be the best chance of leaving now) , they're so inept and staggeringly out of touch they genuinely see a 2nd referendum as simply a synonym for remaining when I think they are very sorely mistaken.

You're going to tell better lies?

[garnish]

I assume that Irish beef farmers (and the Irish farming industy in general) don't grow soya beans either (as their climate is similar), so what do they feed their cattle on?

Also, aren't American soya beans all (effectively) GMO?  Which means that British people, who wish to continue eating beef but either wish to avoid GMOs for their own personal reasons or object to the fascistic way America has "forced" GMO into the food chain and environment, will no longer have that choice. 

Until now, the EU has gone some way in protecting EU citizens right not to buy or consume these products but it looks like Brexit will be the lever that allows the US to force its will on British consumers on this, without debate or choice over this, for many, highly contentious issue.  Nice to see Britain taking back control.

Not all American soya production is based on GMO, although it's a large chunk of it.  The EU allows a select list of GM crops to be used in animal feed over here (mostly maize, but some soya), so it's already in our food chain in that sense.

Ireland is even more dependent on animal feed sourced from overseas than the UK (the UK imports about 40%, Ireland more like 2/3).  Cattle in general will be fed on grass for most of the year anyway, the soyabean imports are more for pigs who need a specific balance of amino acids in their diet.

[Buelligan]

I think this from new forum favourite Grace Blakely is about right https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1100120288497491969?s=19

The only short term impact this will have is destroying the IG (good).

The only long term impact is that Labour will go into the next election as the party that tried to stop Brexit (good if you're a Tory).

But I suspect those who got us here will be long gone by then.

Surely, not necessarily good if you're a tory.  If, for instance, Brexit has happened and people, leave and remain people, are suffering, people will remember that Corbyn tried to save them.  Corbyn does have an annoying (not annoying) habit of being on the right side of history.

[jamiefairlie]

Surely, not necessarily good if you're a tory.  If, for instance, Brexit has happened and people, leave and remain people, are suffering, people will remember that Corbyn tried to save them.  Corbyn does have an annoying (not annoying) habit of being on the right side of history.

Leavers will never take responsibility for making the wrong decision. Better to just bottle their confusion and cognitive dissonance, leading to anger and thence battering some harmless exchange student for talking funny innit.

[biggytitbo]

Remainers will never take responsibility for the cognitive dissonance of supporting something that embodies everything they normally claim to stand against.

[jobotic]

We can ponder on that in our impoverishment while you laugh all the way to the bank.

[biggytitbo]

Were not leaving the EU mate. Thwre are many ways it could still pan out but i think the most likely way they stop us leaving at the moment is that  no agreement is reached before the end of March, theres a delay to article 50 and then a 2nd referendum with  no leave option, just Mays current deal (that allows the EU to permanently lock us into a customs union) or remain.

[Paul Calf]

Biggy 2014: there'll never be a referendum. They won't allow it. 

Biggy 2016: they will never let Leave win.

Biggy 2019: we won't leave anyway. They won't let us.

Third time lucky, Mystic Bigs?

[biggytitbo]

Paul calf 2014: i am a sex offender and I like Michael gove and im proud of it


This is easy. But so you have the exact quotes and context of these supposed statements by me?

[Zetetic]

May's deal is perhaps best thought of as the People's Deal.

The Great British Public (and also some people in NI, unwittingly) elected her to make a deal on the terms she set out. This has she has done, ignoring whatever it is the elites in Parliament have bleated at her about.

[biggytitbo]

Well setting aside the fact she lost her majority and could barely scrape a government with the help of the DUP, she also had a time machine as her 'deal' wasn't formed until after the election.

[Zetetic]

I think this pettifogging about how she formed a government is a bit much. She has obtained the majority of the HoC, in line with what people voted for. She won the popular vote. Her mandate is unimpeachable on these bases.

Clearly the final agreement was formed by interaction with the EU, but that's a matter of trimmings around an essence that is pure Theresa.

Still, perhaps you're right that the final deal should be put back to the Great British public, now what they voted for is more tangible and more clearly seen.

I think, depressingly, they'll probably vote for it - we should see the joke through to the end if we're going to do this though.