Brexit Thread Six: A Gaping Homage To Brextus Propertius

[Cuellar]

By raising prices, as a caption in the article says but is never actually mentioned IN the article. Useless journalism.

[DrGreggles]

Yes i've been consistently pretending to support Corbyn for 4 years.

First time you've made sense on the Brexit thread(s). Well done.

[NoSleep]

Wetherspoons can start selling smaller pints, just like my Co-op now only sells three beetroots for the price that was previously four. And like Morrison's now sell 300g cans instead of standard 400g.

[ToneLa]

Wetherspoons can start selling smaller pints, just like my Co-op now only sells three beetroots for the price that was previously four. And like Morrison's now sell 300g cans instead of standard 400g.

The ultra-political Spoons magazine might have a robust take on any such developments

"These are those New EU pints, this is what you've got when Brexit is delayed. Those gravytrain-riding EU cryptofascist fatcats won't even let us pass the saving on to our customers! Try our Union Jack pizzas."

[biggytitbo]

Bollocks to Wetherspoons, the real story is how the EU benefits to the UK economy are grossly oversold by remainers. Sadly, those advocating a brexit but with a customs union are the most misguided, as the customs union is the one aspect of the EU you can demonstrably prove is bad for the UK. There are no mitigating arguments about culture or identity as there may be with the single market. Our membership of the customs union has led to a transfer of wealth out of the UK.


https://brexitcentral.com/curious-effect-eu-customs-union-uks-cars-carbs/
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-is-a-major-drag-on-the-uk-economy/

[ToneLa]

Bollocks to Wetherspoons, the real story is how the EU benefits to the UK economy are grossly oversold by remainers.

It's not bollocks to them if you post their magazine's cover story, pal. The clumsy segue gave it away

I bet you can do the Spoons Magazine crossword quicker than I can correct the spelling of "about". Cash prize Bigs, have a think!

We could split it 51.89 / 48.11

Help me with two down. "Posh word for those greasy, monied EU twats wallowing in piles of ill-gotten Euros" . 9 letters.

Might be PLUTOCRAT?

[Cuellar]

Bollocks to Wetherspoons, the real story is how the EU benefits to the UK economy are grossly oversold by remainers. Sadly, those advocating a brexit but with a customs union are the most misguided, as the customs union is the one aspect of the EU you can demonstrably prove is bad for the UK. There are no mitigating arguments about culture or identity as there may be with the single market. Our membership of the customs union has led to a transfer of wealth out of the UK.


https://brexitcentral.com/curious-effect-eu-customs-union-uks-cars-carbs/
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-is-a-major-drag-on-the-uk-economy/

These again.

Brexit, and especially a no-deal Brexit, would be bad for the UK automotive industry.

https://lmc-auto.com/impact-no-deal-brexit/

This guy's suggestion to remove all tariffs from food is not going to happen either. Gove has said as such, and as he points out in the article, it could ruin British farmers. Also, under WTO rules, if we apply tariffs to EU food imports, we'd have to apply the same tariffs to food coming from the rest of the world. So suddenly getting cheap South American beef wouldn't happen either.

[biggytitbo]

You can cherry pick all you like but it does not alter the overall picture that the customs union has been awful for the UK, we actually have a trade surplus with the rest of the world but a massive and growing trade deficit with the EU - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/08/why-the-uk-trade-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-widening

The economist Christopher Smallwood has been looking at what has been happening to the UK's manufacturing trade deficit since 2005. He finds that almost all sectors are running a bigger deficit. The deficit with Germany has increased by 5% a year, with France by 7% a year and with the rest of the EU by 11% a year.

Smallwood says the UK's trade performance has deteriorated because the single market and the customs union are designed to suit other countries, Germany in particular, but not Britain.

"It is not surprising that our trade deficit with the EU continues to grow, because the single market and customs union does not represent a free trade area. It is a free trade area only in goods. Manufactured goods represent Germany's comparative advantage, whereas ours is in services.

"We have entered into a lop-sided arrangement under which all impediments to trade have been removed from areas where our trading partners are strong but not from areas where we are strong. So obviously our overall trade deficit with them has gone on rising, and will continue to do so."

As Elliot says at the end, if we were weighing up entering the customs union now and knew what terrible effects it would have on our trade, there's absolutely fuck all chance we'd join. I was watching a 1975 tv debate the other day about the referendum to stay in the common market and Tony Benn was arguing this exact point, even then, that the common market would be bad for UK trade and he was 100% right.


It's hardly surprising that the core EU countries main objective in all of this, if not to get us to remain outright, is to get is to remain in a customs union - they benefit far more from it than we do.

[Cuellar]

He's cherry picking though.

He says 'because we used to export 80% to the EU now we export 44% the customs Union is bad for every sector in the UK'. That doesn't follow. The article points to the UK's 'power house' being premium models. So perhaps with the growth of BRIC economies, we decided to focus on exporting more premium models to China, India etc.

[biggytitbo]

You can't cherry pick the trade deficit though, and how its rapidly increasing with the EU but is actually a surplus with the rest of the world. Or indeed how our share of trade with the EU has fallen from 55% 10 years ago to 44% today. Again you may be able to make some other arguments about the single market but with the customs union the figures don't lie.

[Cuellar]

Again, could this be down to non-EU countries growing economies?

Also:

Clearly, the UK's whopping trade deficit is the result of a range of factors. High interest rates, an over-valued currency, a culture of short-termism, poor management and unwillingness to invest in new machinery and skills have all played a part. It would fly in the face of the evidence to suggest that the trade deficit is simply a function of being a member of the single market and the customs union.

[biggytitbo]

Well it would fly in the face of the evidence to say it was the only reason but it would hardly fly in the face of the evidence to say its not a major reason - as that very article argues.


You can't have it both ways, a customs union with the EU can't both be so important to the UK we'll sink into the sea if we leave and also simultaneously nothing to do with our terrible economic performance with the EU.

[Cuellar]

Our economy hasn't performed terribly in the EU. Manufacturing hasn't performed well, for the reasons he gives (no investment etc.).

[Paul Calf]

Well it would fly in the face of the evidence to say it was the only reason but it would hardly fly in the face of the evidence to say its not a major reason - as that very article argues.


You can't have it both ways, a customs union with the EU can't both be so important to the UK we'll sink into the sea if we leave and also simultaneously nothing to do with our terrible economic performance with the EU.

It can though.

[Buelligan]

Well it would fly in the face of the evidence to say it was the only reason but it would hardly fly in the face of the evidence to say its not a major reason - as that very article argues.


You can't have it both ways, a customs union with the EU can't both be so important to the UK we'll sink into the sea if we leave and also simultaneously nothing to do with our terrible economic performance with the EU.

Point is biggy, people can get by - we need to tackle some internal shit, like zero-hours, universal credit, underfunding, these are not EU things, they can be dealt with given the right government. 

With Brexit, unless, you know you're sitting pretty, anything could happen - I could lose my home, job, everything, lots of people are in that position.  Many more may lose their jobs, which may mean losing their homes and that can often mean losing their families. 

This isn't just some hand-wavy shit, it's real.  That's why lots of people, especially given the insight into just how completely fucking useless the government we're supposed to handing this marvellous sovereignty to are, are worried as fuck and would rather stay in. 

Can you understand that?  It's real people, real lives, not your interpretation as a five minute expert, using figures from some spurious slanted blog, of how the trade deficit looks.

[phantom_power]

Bollocks to Wetherspoons, the real story is how the EU benefits to the UK economy are grossly oversold by remainers. Sadly, those advocating a brexit but with a customs union are the most misguided, as the customs union is the one aspect of the EU you can demonstrably prove is bad for the UK. There are no mitigating arguments about culture or identity as there may be with the single market. Our membership of the customs union has led to a transfer of wealth out of the UK.


https://brexitcentral.com/curious-effect-eu-customs-union-uks-cars-carbs/
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-is-a-major-drag-on-the-uk-economy/

Do you honestly think they are unbiased sources using unbiased statistics and data collection methods?

[biggytitbo]

Our economy hasn't performed terribly in the EU. Manufacturing hasn't performed well, for the reasons he gives (no investment etc.).

This is another rewriting of history then, as it seems to have done pretty badly to me (albeit not as bad as the same doom mongers assured us since 2016 of course, but that was barely possible), and everyone else who isn't Philip Hammond seems to agree. They just have the same cognitive dissonance as you - the EU is so pivotal, so crucial to our entire economic existence that we're going to crash and burn out of it, but literally nothing about our poor economic performance has anything to do with the EU. Again, you can't have it both ways, our economy is completely structured around the EU, the EU is doing shit and so are we. In trade specifically, we have an abysmal deficit.

This is where some people here are such naughty fibbers. You'll get all upset and claim you aren't EU zealots and you acknowledge criticism of the EU all the time, but then you'll argue until your blue in the face to deny any possible criticism of it.

[Buelligan]

Ordinary people don't give two fucks about how the economy's doing bigs, they just want to keep their homes and families together.

[Cuellar]

This is another rewriting of history then, as it seems to have done pretty badly to me (albeit not as bad as the same doom mongers assured us since 2016 of course, but that was barely possible), and everyone else who isn't Philip Hammond seems to agree. They just have the same cognitive dissonance as you - the EU is so pivotal, so crucial to our entire economic existence that we're going to crash and burn out of it, but literally nothing about our poor economic performance has anything to do with the EU. Again, you can't have it both ways, our economy is completely structured around the EU, the EU is doing shit and so are we. In trade specifically, we have an abysmal deficit.

This is where some people here are such naughty fibbers. You'll get all upset and claim you aren't EU zealots and you acknowledge criticism of the EU all the time, but then you'll argue until your blue in the face to deny any possible criticism of it.

The economy hasn't done badly, that is an objective fact. The choices made by UK governments on how to spend that money or not spend it, as the case may be, is a different issue.

According to Oxfam in 2017, 9 out of the top ten countries that spend most on health, education, and social protection are EU countries. The UK ranks 28th. If Ireland, Germany, Finland, Belgium and France (to take the top 5) can spend more on these things while still being in the EU, why can't the UK?

[Cuellar]

Oh god Brexitis is catching, everyone's just repeating things for no reason:

"It's not just an issue of the British participating in elections. It's about the presidency of the parliament and we could enter into a debate about parliamentary legitimacy and we could enter into a debate about parliamentary legitimacy."

[biggytitbo]

The economy hasn't done badly, that is an objective fact. The choices made by UK governments on how to spend that money or not spend it, as the case may be, is a different issue.

According to Oxfam in 2017, 9 out of the top ten countries that spend most on health, education, and social protection are EU countries. The UK ranks 28th. If Ireland, Germany, Finland, Belgium and France (to take the top 5) can spend more on these things while still being in the EU, why can't the UK?

Well I was talking specifically about the customs union and how this is a bad for the UK, but you can't seriously argue the general UK economy has done well for most ordinary people when wages are so stagnant, when prices are so high, when inequality is rising, and you can't claim it's doing great for the EU generally with its flatlined growth, multiple recessions, vast youth unemployment etc. Why do you think far right nationalism is taking a major grip in almost every EU country? This does not happen during economic good times.

[Paul Calf]

Well I was talking specifically about the customs union and how this is a bad for the UK, but you can't seriously argue the general UK economy has done well for most ordinary people when wages are so stagnant, when prices are so high, when inequality is rising, and you can't claim it's doing great for the EU generally with its flatlined growth, multiple recessions, vast youth unemployment etc. Why do you think far right nationalism is taking a major grip in almost every EU country? This does not happen during economic good times.

Are you really trying to blame a crisis of capitalism caused by the irresponsible behaviour of the financial services industry on the EU?

Is that what you're doing?

[Paul Calf]

Comrade fucking Titbo,
Boil your fucking head.

[biggytitbo]

Are you really trying to blame a crisis of capitalism caused by the irresponsible behaviour of the financial services industry on the EU?

Is that what you're doing?

No I'm doing exactly what I said in my previous remarks, everything else is in your imagination.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Far right nationalism is not taking a grip in many Eu countries e.g. Spain, Belgium and is taking a grip as you put it in many non EU countries such as the USA, Brazil.

[biggytitbo]

Far right nationalism is not taking a grip in many Eu countries e.g. Spain, Belgium and is taking a grip as you put it in many non EU countries such as the USA, Brazil.

Just Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Germany, Finland, France, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece and Italy then?

[ToneLa]

Just Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Germany, Finland, France, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece and Italy then?

How do you explain the non EU countries?

And for the banking crash while we're at it

[dr beat]

Spain? Election in April. Right wing Francoist Vox  are polling well

[Darles Chickens]

Spain? Election in April. Right wing Francoist Vox  are polling well

Not _that_ well, but the problem is, in coalition with other Right-wing parties like PP or C's, they can get some power.  The Socialists got the most votes in the Andalucía elections, but not enough to form government.

The problem in Spain is the lack of engagement amongst the 18-30 age group. The sort of people who vote Vox are the sort of people who want to legitimise beating up or raping their wife at home because they deserved it.  Yes, Vox want to get rid of the gender violence law.  They also want to tell women what to do with their bodies.  Very few people in Spain actually think like this, and have these beliefs, but if the vote is swayed by Francoist pensioners, what can we do?

In short, just because Vox are polling higher than ever before, doesn't mean that Spain is turning to the right.  It could mean that people are gullible idiots though.

[Jittlebags]

Pay £50 on Farage's Sunderland march, you get to be a "core marcher", and get given an official kit including high viz jacket, wristband, wooly hat and a blue drink.