Brexit Thread Six: A Gaping Homage To Brextus Propertius

[ToneLa]

am I? I wonder?

Probably not but if there's one much needed role the Bigster plays it is devil's advocate

Otherwise this thread is just everyone else going Oh that's terrible and Paulie Walnuts rolling in at 6PM to misspell Loser

... Why am I talking myself into joining Pistonheads?

Fuck, my knack for dooming new pages is industrious!

[Jittlebags]

That's the other bollocks which pisses me off is when some Brexit twat on Radio4 says people voted for the 2 main parties in the last election that had leaving the EU in their manifesto. What does that mean for the 48% ? Does that mean they shouldn't have voted for any of the 2 main parties and thus become disenfranchised ?

[garnish]

But they're not part of a bureaucratic trading block whose proponents constantly claim is some kind of liberal utopia that is literally the only possible way we can maintain the values or tolerance, cooperation and internationalism.

[ToneLa]

Let's kill this thread like any amendment on anything gets killed because our political class has turned us against eachother

[Sherman Krank]

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Well obviously.

An obvious consequence of a Remainer segment of the UK being unhappy with parties trying to do Brexit and knowing the Lib Dems are a dying party.

Wait until the SNP have to make extremely difficult decisions and see how they do. If you get your pathetic independence you'll find out the moral vacuum occupying the party.

[jamiefairlie]

Well obviously.

An obvious consequence of a Remainer segment of the UK being unhappy with parties trying to do Brexit and knowing the Lib Dems are a dying party.

Wait until the SNP have to make extremely difficult decisions and see how they do. If you get your pathetic independence you'll find out the moral vacuum occupying the party.

"Pathetic"? Is it pathetic for every other fucking country then, or just Scotland? Maybe England would enjoy being a colony of the USA? Yeah, didn't think so.

[Pseudopath]

Here's an interesting article from Der Spiegel (obviously in German, but understandable through Google Translate) which points out a gaping flaw in the legal processes around leaving the EU.

TLDR: Although you need approval from all 27 EU members to extend Article 50, there's apparently nothing stopping us from revoking Article 50, then immediately resubmitting it to trigger another two year negotiation period. They're both unilateral processes in the eyes of the European Court of Justice.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

"Pathetic"? Is it pathetic for every other fucking country then, or just Scotland? Maybe England would enjoy being a colony of the USA? Yeah, didn't think so.

Scotland declined independence even in the heat of the most poisonous campaign ever assembled to facilitate it, so wind your neck in. You don't speak for Scotland, the Scottish people spoke and you are the minority.

[Zetetic]

Although you need approval from all 27 EU members to extend Article 50, there's apparently nothing stopping us from revoking Article 50, then immediately resubmitting it to trigger another two year negotiation period. They're both unilateral processes in the eyes of the European Court of Justice.

Right, other than - as the article sort of gestures to towards the end - such a revocation would have to "confirm the EU membership of the Member State concerned" and "[bring] the withdrawal procedure to an end".

A nominal revocation shortly followed by renotification wouldn't seem to have such a purpose, and the ECJ judgement would leave that open to legal challenge (by any member state at the very least, but maybe also any European citizen).

[Sherman Krank]

Well obviously.

An obvious consequence of a Remainer segment of the UK being unhappy with parties trying to do Brexit and knowing the Lib Dems are a dying party.

Wait until the SNP have to make extremely difficult decisions and see how they do. If you get your pathetic independence you'll find out the moral vacuum occupying the party.

Scotland declined independence even in the heat of the most poisonous campaign ever assembled to facilitate it, so wind your neck in. You don't speak for Scotland, the Scottish people spoke and you are the minority.

Shoulders opinions on Scottish politics and The Scots in general are brought to you by The English Media, proud makers of Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite.

[jamiefairlie]

Scotland declined independence even in the heat of the most poisonous campaign ever assembled to facilitate it, so wind your neck in. You don't speak for Scotland, the Scottish people spoke and you are the minority.

1) The yes campaign was universally praised for its inclusivity and positivity, even by the Better Together people

2) The only poison came from the usual collection of far right, orange lodge, rangers supporting knuckle draggers with their Nazi salutes

3) Polls have consistently showed support for another referendum at over 50%, especially when Brexit is mentioned

[Buelligan]

Scotland declined independence even in the heat of the most poisonous campaign ever assembled to facilitate it, so wind your neck in. You don't speak for Scotland, the Scottish people spoke and you are the minority.

Yeah, steady on Shoulders.  No need for this is there?

[Bryan Cocks]

wind your neck in. You don't speak for Scotland, the Scottish people spoke and you are the minority.

Like something out of a Tommy Robinson facebook support group. Calm down.

[Fambo Number Mive]

The government will need to spend tens of millions of pounds to keep its no-deal ferry contracts in place if Brexit is delayed. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47592812

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Like something out of a Tommy Robinson facebook support group. Calm down.

Pointing out independence lost and therefore a nationalist isn't speaking for the majority is like that is it? Hmmm ok mate. I think that's pretty hysterical, so why don't you calm down?

As for claiming otherwise, the sheer arrogance of it. Check historical polling - independence has nearly every year outside of the run up to the referendum been a minority view.

Obviously given Scotland were pro-Remain an issue like Brexit plays into the hands of the independence movement. Another reason Cameron should walk into some fast moving bullets*

*Entirely by accident, but this morning

The UK won't be able to stay together now he's unleashed this shit on us all, that I agree with and we are all fucked, Scotland included.

[Sherman Krank]

Pointing out independence lost and therefore a nationalist isn't speaking for the majority is like that is it? Hmmm ok mate. I think that's pretty hysterical, so why don't you calm down?

As for claiming otherwise, the sheer arrogance of it. Check historical polling - independence has nearly every year outside of the run up to the referendum been a minority view.

A fine example of the clueless pontificating that's led to Scottish Labour becoming little more than a rotting corpse.

The Indyref No vote comprised of a smaller group of staunch Unionists and a larger group of people who were led to believe they were voting for the status quo.
Now that status quo they were promised is about to disappear they're less than chuffed.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

A fine example of the clueless pontificating that's led to Scottish Labour becoming little more than a rotting corpse.

The Indyref No vote comprised of a smaller group of staunch Unionists and a larger group of people who were led to believe they were voting for the status quo.
Now that status quo they were promised is about to disappear they're less than chuffed.

So basically an obstinate way of ignoring the facts presented to you, not to mention the argument itself, redirecting the discussion to a load of screamingly obvious stuff that has nothing to do with the point of argument and which I of course agree with having already literally posted something to the same effect.

[Replies From View]

Comprised of?


No.  Wrong.

[Paul Calf]

We definitely need more division around here. Good work.

[BlodwynPig]

We definitely need more division around here. Good work.

You can take your olive branch and shove it...

[Replies From View]

I've got enough doves up inside my arse as it is.

I don't get what's supposed to be so peaceful about them anyway.  Their beaks are as sharp as all the others.

[Sherman Krank]

So basically an obstinate way of ignoring the facts presented to you

Is this one of your 'facts'...

independence lost and therefore a nationalist isn't speaking for the majority

Seems more like a mad assertion that if the next round of indyref2 polls show Yes on 70% then the 30% are still the majority because of a vote taken four and a half years ago.

Or this...

Check historical polling - independence has nearly every year outside of the run up to the referendum been a minority view.

Can you explain why this is relevant to what's happening now?

What about....

Scotland declined independence even in the heat of the most poisonous campaign ever assembled to facilitate it

Hilarious but I suspect you're referring to those evil CyberNats, who of course have now mostly been given a makeover and re purposed as the antisemitic Corbynistas Wee Mags Hodge keeps reporting as evidence of Corbo's guilt.

Going back to your original Pavlovian response...

An obvious consequence of a Remainer segment of the UK being unhappy with parties trying to do Brexit and knowing the Lib Dems are a dying party.

Looks like someone's never heard of Willie Rennie.

Wait until the SNP have to make extremely difficult decisions and see how they do. If you get your pathetic independence you'll find out the moral vacuum occupying the party.

Another cracker.
Thanks to Tory austerity the Scottish Government has spent every week of the last decade making extremely difficult decisions.
Also anyone who shares a party with Tom Watson shouldn't be casting aspersions about moral vacuums.

not to mention the argument itself

You had an argument?

redirecting the discussion to a load of screamingly obvious stuff

Was it 'screamingly obvious' to you? Because that's not the impression I got.

that has nothing to do with the point of argument

Again....

and which I of course agree with having already literally posted something to the same effect.

Something about shooting David Cameron because Scotland won't do what you want?




I've got shit to do now until later this evening so you can take your time.

[Buelligan]

The UK won't be able to stay together now he's unleashed this shit on us all, that I agree with and we are all fucked, Scotland included.

I think if Brexit happens Scotland should definitely go for independence and stay in/rejoin the EU.  I think being tied to England whilst England commits suicide would fuck it, not just financially - it would say in letters far bigger, even, than the side of a bus that Scotland is England's vassal for all time, to be used and broken at England's pleasure. 

This whole Brexit thing is about sovereignty isn't it, sovereignty and taking back control.

Scotland should keep its own fishing grounds and all.

[jamiefairlie]

I think if Brexit happens Scotland should definitely go for independence and stay in/rejoin the EU.  I think being tied to England whilst England commits suicide would fuck it, not just financially - it would say in letters far bigger, even, than the side of a bus that Scotland is England's vassal for all time, to be used and broken at England's pleasure.

As a Tory Minister said recently "Once you've hit the iceberg, you're all on it together" . That's their aittitude, we're fucked so don't you dare think we'll let you escape!

The visceral hatred that many Labour supporters have for the concept of Scottish independence is baffling to me. The Tories oppose it with a cold, calculated cynicism. They know England needs Scottish resources and they know Scotland will be better off as an indepedent state, so they try to block it with every trick in their establishment book out of pure self benefit. But it's a rationale, unemotional thing and so I can understand it.

Labour folk though just seem to be roused to incandescent rage and fury by the idea and i don't get it. Is the idea that Scotland could prosper as an small country similar to Norway so disgusting as to engeder such hatred? Why is Scotland, out of all the countries in the world, uniquely not fit to have indepedence? What was our original sin that disqualifies us?

We have the other thread about what the Left needs to do to win power and i made the point about Labour being less arrogant and tribal. This is a classic case in point, when you leave everything else aside, the policies the SNP have enacted in Scotland, with all the limits Westminster places on them, have been more progessive than either the Welsh Labour run government or the last UK Labour run one. Yet the SNP are the untouchable caste, not fit to even hint that you might agree with them on anything, even though they are they are closest in policy to what Labour say they want.

Baffling.

[Zetetic]

"Chaotic scenes" has quite a broad set of referents.

(This doesn't have anything to do with Scottish independence.)

[Jakey Chesterton]

+1 for pathetic independence, please.

[jamiefairlie]

"Chaotic scenes" has quite a broad set of referents.

(This doesn't have anything to do with Scottish independence.)

The media again being complicit in fanning the flames. See other photos and it's obvious it's a tiny gathering but that's not newsworthy enough so they need to sex it up.

[Buelligan]

As a Tory Minister said recently "Once you've hit the iceberg, you're all on it together" . That's their aittitude, we're fucked so don't you dare think we'll let you escape!

The visceral hatred that many Labour supporters have for the concept of Scottish independence is baffling to me. The Tories oppose it with a cold, calculated cynicism. They know England needs Scottish resources and they know Scotland will be better off as an indepedent state, so they try to block it with every trick in their establishment book out of pure self benefit. But it's a rationale, unemotional thing and so I can understand it.

Labour folk though just seem to be roused to incandescent rage and fury by the idea and i don't get it. Is the idea that Scotland could prosper as an small country similar to Norway so disgusting as to engeder such hatred? Why is Scotland, out of all the countries in the world, uniquely not fit to have indepedence? What was our original sin that disqualifies us?

We have the other thread about what the Left needs to do to win power and i made the point about Labour being less arrogant and tribal. This is a classic case in point, when you leave everything else aside, the policies the SNP have enacted in Scotland, with all the limits Westminster places on them, have been more progessive than either the Welsh Labour run government or the last UK Labour run one. Yet the SNP are the untouchable caste, not fit to even hint that you might agree with them on anything, even though they are they are closest in policy to what Labour say they want.

Baffling.

I don't know but I'd guess that some Labour supporters (myself included) desperately want a Labour government and they recognise that Scotland, historically, has been Labour's saving grace.  Scotland stayed strong.  Scotland gave Labour the seats. 

Now, it seems that's gone and maybe some find it hard to accept that the reason it's gone is because Labour took Scotland for granted one time too many.  It's no use crying and getting angry, saying you made us do it, that you'll never get by alone, promising never to hit you again or bringing you red roses, you need to go your own way, though this time, next time, it will be different, we've changed, we're a new man.

[Zetetic]

Since it'll move on, and it's a bit irritating to ask people to click a link for something so trivial: