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March 29, 2024, 12:05:16 AM

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Brexit Thread Six: A Gaping Homage To Brextus Propertius

Started by Fambo Number Mive, February 19, 2019, 10:23:45 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Cuellar

All I can see is Remain being by far the most popular option.

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 03:21:08 PM

No, I oppose article 13 and I oppose our membership of the EU.

This thread: Please give specifics
Biggy: No, only broad rhetoric

Replies From View

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Anyway I've changed my mind now. I love the EU, and like this thread am now desperate we remain at all costs.

This is now an embarrassing number of Brexit threads for you to have somehow misread to such a degree.

Replies From View

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 02:56:48 PM
Biggy: I oppose the death penalty
This thread: bring back hanging now!

Corrected version:

Referendum on hanging:  52% in favour of bringing back hanging
Biggy:  HAVE TO DO IT THEN BECAUSE IT SAYS SO

greencalx

Yes, it turns out that when the DUP's Brexit spokesperson speaks about Brexit, they might not actually be speaking the DUP's Brexit position. Got that?

PS Fambo - no worries. I don't even read my own posts half the time.

danielreal2k


QuoteThe European Parliament has backed controversial copyright laws critics say could change the nature of the net.




biggytitbo

QuoteGrowing speculation that MV3 could take place on Friday, Brexit Day, as Gove suggested at cabinet. House isn't supposed to be sitting, but that could change with an emergency business statement. Am told "no plans as of yet" by govt sources.
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1110565942650720256

Why tho?

danielreal2k

Leave:  We want to leave EU make our own laws
Remain: No, we like EU
EU: regulates internet
Remain: We don't want article 13

dear lord

greencalx

IV process sounds complicated. Bottom line seems to be that MPs will vote on all propositions on paper (simultaneously?) but not in secret, and the results of all of them will be announced at the end of the day. Then next Monday they'll have another go, presumably with a smaller set of the most popular options. Seems unclear how the latter will be decided.

poo


Alberon

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 04:40:18 PM
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1110565942650720256

Why tho?

May is meeting the 1922 Committee tomorrow night. Might announce she'll quit if the deal passes. Seems a bit pointless as she'll be gone as soon as any progress on a deal or an extension is made.

olliebean

May on the indicative votes:

QuoteThe prime minister said she was "sceptical" about the process - as it was not guaranteed to produce a majority for any one course of action - and she would not commit the government to abiding by the result.

Fucksake - that's the whole point of the indicative votes - to find out if there's a majority for any one course of action. The trouble is she still thinks that hanging on refusing to consider any alternative course of action is guaranteed to produce a last-minute majority for her deal.

pancreas

Quote from: olliebean on March 26, 2019, 04:53:22 PM
Fucksake - that's the whole point of the indicative votes - to find out if there's a majority for any one course of action. The trouble is she still thinks that hanging on refusing to consider any alternative course of action is guaranteed to produce a last-minute majority for her deal.


Buelligan

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 02:27:15 PM
It's an EU directive, whilst we're subject to EU treaties - which you wish to permanently bind us to let us not forget, we are obliged to incorporate this into UK law within 2 years.

QuoteDirectives
Directives require EU countries to achieve a certain result, but leave them free to choose how to do so. EU countries must adopt measures to incorporate them into national law (transpose) in order to achieve the objectives set by the directive. National authorities must communicate these measures to the European Commission.

Transposition into national law must take place by the deadline set when the directive is adopted (generally within 2 years). When a country does not transpose a directive, the Commission may initiate infringement proceedings.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en

Crucially, though I'm no expert, I'd say from reading (again!) your link, that Directives are required to be carried into the National Law of member states within a period of two years, once they are adopted.  My understanding of adopted in this situation is that they have been agreed upon by all member states (as I said earlier).

So, as I understand it, if the MEPs (democratically elected by ordinary citizens, rather like British MPs) pass a putative Directive, it is then passed to all member states for consideration.  If all member states agree to adopt the Directive, it is then adopted and all member states have a period of two years in which their own lawmakers and civil servants can agree a legal form of words making the aims of the Directive into law in their particular country.

It's a bit like a trade agreement, only it's done openly, voted on by elected representatives and debated publicly.

Cuellar


Quote from: Alberon on March 26, 2019, 04:50:09 PM
May is meeting the 1922 Committee tomorrow night. Might announce she'll quit if the deal passes. Seems a bit pointless as she'll be gone as soon as any progress on a deal or an extension is made.

What kind of offer is that though? They want her gone because of the deal, they aren't rejecting the deal because of her.

Plus she's constantly lying to the house and to her own MPs. Why would anyone trust her?

Alberon

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on March 26, 2019, 05:14:43 PM
What kind of offer is that though? They want her gone because of the deal, they aren't rejecting the deal because of her.

Plus she's constantly lying to the house and to her own MPs. Why would anyone trust her?

I didn't say it made any sense. Little of her actions do. She refused an offer to attend the 1922 last week so it'll fantastic to see the reaction if she gives her usual non-speech speech.

Though it does seem her plan to whittle all options down to her deal or no deal and run out the clock is finally bearing fruit. Some Tory rebels have been scared into voting for a deal they hate.

Zetetic

Regarding Article 13 and in particular the greater push for automated filters - this is a bad law and we shoud seek to oppose and undo it.

That doesn't mean it's been imposed undemocratically, certainly not to a greater extent than other legislation.

I note that I am still awaiting any response from Labour MEPs regarding their votes on this issue. My Plaid MEP has been much more responsive (and voted against the relevant bits).

(No, I won't bother discussing the Tory MEPs - because I don't expect or hope for any better of them. Edit: Although depressingly, they've been better on this issue as a group than Labour, arguably.)

Zetetic

Quote from: Cuellar on March 26, 2019, 05:12:16 PM
I wonder how 'we' voted on it.
Generally in favour of the bad bits and the overall thing. Plaid, SNP and Sinn Fein being consistently opposed I believe.

There's obviously some speculation about how Brexit might affect the tendencies of the EParliament - for one thing, it'll probably tip the balance against the 'creative industries' (and in favour of big tech companies, if you like) when it comes to the push for more aggressive copyright measures.

biggytitbo

Brexit doesnt automatically mean you don't get bad laws or politicians,  but the feedback loop in terms of undoing unpopular policies is more straightforward and much shorter in national government than it is in a transnational bureaucracy specifically designed to make its decisions hard to change like the EU.

Talulah, really!

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 06:13:03 PM
Brexit doesnt automatically mean you don't get bad laws or politicians, 

Gee, thanks for clearing that up.

Cuellar

Academic twitter is loving it, apparently public domain images can't be copyrighted (e.g. By galleries or some shit I don't know) now, making publishing books including these images a lot easier.

Cuellar

Quote from: Zetetic on March 26, 2019, 05:50:36 PM
Generally in favour of the bad bits and the overall thing. Plaid, SNP and Sinn Fein being consistently opposed I believe.

There's obviously some speculation about how Brexit might affect the tendencies of the EParliament - for one thing, it'll probably tip the balance against the 'creative industries' (and in favour of big tech companies, if you like) when it comes to the push for more aggressive copyright measures.

Standard.

Rich Uncle Skeleton

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 06:13:03 PM
Brexit doesnt automatically mean you don't get bad laws or politicians

Yeah because we're already lumbered with a fucking Tory government.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: biggytitbo on March 26, 2019, 06:13:03 PM
Brexit doesnt automatically mean you don't get bad laws or politicians,  but the feedback loop in terms of undoing unpopular policies is more straightforward and much shorter in national government than it is in a transnational bureaucracy specifically designed to make its decisions hard to change like the EU.

In my view the benefits of engaging in multilateralism and co-operation with other nations in this format outstrip the bureaucratic disadvantages, even if they were constant and impermeable (they are not - you don't believe so but that's always been a faith-based argument on your part).

Your feedback loop argument is simply parochialism and its logic can be reduced ad absurdium.

In reality it is in everyone's common interests to work to solve problems at a wider level because the growth in prosperity/civil rights for one country isn't just of benefit to that country, and environmental progress in one country isn't just of benefit to that country.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuotePrediction:- Parliament will not find a conclusive answer that commands as stable majority tomorrow.

The most 'popular' motions will be opposed by front benches of both Govt and Opposition because it does not reflect their own policy.

I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Hope not.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on March 26, 2019, 07:55:53 PM
In my view the benefits of engaging in multilateralism and co-operation with other nations in this format outstrip the bureaucratic disadvantages, even if they were constant and impermeable (they are not - you don't believe so but that's always been a faith-based argument on your part).

Your feedback loop argument is simply parochialism and its logic can be reduced ad absurdium.

In reality it is in everyone's common interests to work to solve problems at a wider level because the growth in prosperity/civil rights for one country isn't just of benefit to that country, and environmental progress in one country isn't just of benefit to that country.


Transnational bureaucracies are intrinsically less democratic and less representative than nation states, and if there's one thing we can be certain of, the less democratic the system, the more distant and centralised it is, the more the interests of corporations, capital and the favoured middle classes will come first.


A less democratic system will always be a synonym for a less equal one, and that is ultimately the EU in a nutshell. The best it will ever offer the poor is crumbs of charity, not actual representation of their interests.

Zetetic

The UK seems a better example in practice, mind you, of a distant hypercentralised transnational bureacracy than the EU.

greencalx

Seems like the right wing is capitulating and falling behind May's deal. But even if it does pass I suspect there's a good chance it will be amended.