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"And, in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make"

Started by sick as a pike, February 23, 2019, 05:07:21 PM

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NO, BUT IS IT??

I don't think I've been in this bit of the forum previously, but this issue has been troubling me, so I thought I'd open it to the floor.

Ok, establishing the ground rules. Abbey Road is the best album ever. No, shut up, it just is, so let's get that out of the way, I don't want any fuss.

"And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make"

Lennon: "That's Paul again ... He had a line in it, 'And in the end, the love you get is equal to the love you give,' which is a very cosmic, philosophical line. Which again proves that if he wants to, he can think."  Lennon accidentally misquoting, but the sense is there.

But... is it in fact cogent?  Obviously lyrics/poems don't need to pass a sense stress-test, and for years I've thought "yes... the love you take is indeed equal to the love you make."  But as mentioned earlier, IS IT??  Or is it the sort of vapid nonsense someone all twerked up on the drugs might assert? 
Much as I love Sir McCartney (P), even after he chatted up my partner on the train from Ashford last year, I think this deserves stringent analysis.

Or some analysis.

Or no analysis.

It's more cogent than 'Imagine' but that's not saying much.

There are probably countless examples that disprove it though. Lots of loving parents get spat on by their kids. Lots of loving wives get beaten and abused. However, you could probably see it as a wish for the future like 'Imagine no religion'. Never likely to happen but a nice sentiment.

Twed

John Lennon was such a cunt. His real, abusive stepdad persona is detectable behind all of his peace and love posturing.

"You can think when you put your thick mind to it, McCartney boy".

DrGreggles

Imagine gets a hard time, but it's a nice enough tune.
Lyrics are a bit naive, I suppose.

wosl

'Equal' is the crux, isn't it.  In any event, it comes across as glib or profound, depending on how it finds you at the time.

ToneLa

Quote from: Twed on February 23, 2019, 05:35:10 PM
John Lennon was such a cunt. His real, abusive stepdad persona is detectable behind all of his peace and love posturing.

"You can think when you put your thick mind to it, McCartney boy".

Macca wrote that line mate

ajsmith2

Most people are familiar with the popular image of John Lennon the overrated dickhead, wife beater and hypocritical millionaire.  But did you know there was another, hidden side to him? Few are aware that Lennon led a secret life as the best vocalist in the Beatles (and one of the best pop vocalists full stop), as well as being a top notch songwriter and pioneering comedic nutcase. This shocking expose will upend everything you thought you knew about one of historys greatest cunts.

Howj Begg

It's a normative rather than descriptive statement. He's saying to you, if you want to receive love, you have to make it. Considering stuff like "You never give me your money", "carry that weight" etc, his comments on The Beatles on the same elpee, I reckon it's another reference to that: "You guys are gonna get no concessions from me unless you make an effort to be decent. If you do that, I can be nice". It's actually another petty swipe, rather than a grand philosophical statement about Love.

Twed

Quote from: ToneLa on February 23, 2019, 05:43:43 PM
Macca wrote that line mate
I'm referring to this:

QuoteLennon: "That's Paul again ... He had a line in it, 'And in the end, the love you get is equal to the love you give,' which is a very cosmic, philosophical line. Which again proves that if he wants to, he can think."  Lennon accidentally misquoting, but the sense is there.

Howj Begg

Lennon was a cunt of dad to Julian, and a cunt of a husband to Cynthia. He was also apparently a nasty cunt to his friends and associates very often too.

But: As far as I can see, the popular legend of him being a wife beater, which may have come from a comment he once made, and possibly his contribution to "Getting Better", has never actually been corroborated by any one. Cynthia specifically said that he never beat her, except for slapping her once, I believe. Yoko has never claimed he hit her.

Happy to be proved wrong about this.

biggytitbo

Quote from: DrGreggles on February 23, 2019, 05:35:21 PM
Imagine gets a hard time, but it's a nice enough tune.
Lyrics are a bit naive cynical, I suppose.
[/quote

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: sick as a pike on February 23, 2019, 05:07:21 PM
NO, BUT IS IT??

I don't think I've been in this bit of the forum previously, but this issue has been troubling me, so I thought I'd open it to the floor.

Ok, establishing the ground rules. Abbey Road is the best album ever. No, shut up, it just is, so let's get that out of the way, I don't want any fuss.

"And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make"

Lennon: "That's Paul again ... He had a line in it, 'And in the end, the love you get is equal to the love you give,' which is a very cosmic, philosophical line. Which again proves that if he wants to, he can think."  Lennon accidentally misquoting, but the sense is there.

But... is it in fact cogent?  Obviously lyrics/poems don't need to pass a sense stress-test, and for years I've thought "yes... the love you take is indeed equal to the love you make."  But as mentioned earlier, IS IT??  Or is it the sort of vapid nonsense someone all twerked up on the drugs might assert? 
Much as I love Sir McCartney (P), even after he chatted up my partner on the train from Ashford last year, I think this deserves stringent analysis.

Or some analysis.

Or no analysis.

Fuck stringent analysis, tell us about you and yours meeting a flirtatious Macca on the train.

grassbath

I hear you. On paper, it's a pretty glib and simplistic bit of 'karmic' wisdom. But then the Beatles had a knack for lyrics which could be seen as a bit pants out of context, but are elevated by music, conviction and charm to generation-galvanising stuff. 'I want to hold your hand,' 'All you need is love' and the like.

Also seconding Brundle-Fly above.

Bennett Brauer

Quote from: grassbath on February 24, 2019, 05:44:01 PM
I hear you. On paper, it's a pretty glib and simplistic bit of 'karmic' wisdom. But then the Beatles had a knack for lyrics which could be seen as a bit pants out of context, but are elevated by music, conviction and charm to generation-galvanising stuff. 'I want to hold your hand,' 'All you need is love' and the like.

Also seconding Brundle-Fly above.

Thirded. And is it true he always puts a pile of Rupert annuals on the window-seat next to him so no one can sit there? https://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2018/03/16/3809844150635573936/1024x576_MP4_3809844150635573936.mp4

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: Bennett Brauer on February 24, 2019, 07:01:32 PM
Thirded. And is it true he always puts a pile of Rupert annuals on the window-seat next to him so no one can sit there? https://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2018/03/16/3809844150635573936/1024x576_MP4_3809844150635573936.mp4

That is really creepy. To be famous in the 21st Century is a poisoned chalice. A chalice with human faeces smeared on the rim.

Gulftastic


Lennon: "I was a hitter" (Playboy, 1980).

But Cynthia said he only hit her once and Yoko says he never hit her, so he was admitting to more than has been documented or stated by his female partners AFAIK.



Quote from: Brundle-Fly on February 24, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
Fuck stringent analysis, tell us about you and yours meeting a flirtatious Macca on the train.
Annoyingly, I didn't.
This is one of those stories that starts pretty well, then rapidly loses momentum...

(The day of the European Referendum, not that it's relevant.)
My partner who I will refer to here as "Julia," as that is her name, commutes from Folkestone to London by train.  I'd dropped her off at the station, and she changed trains to pick up the fast service at Ashford.  A couple of men wandered onto the platform, and she realised one of them was Paul McCartney.
She played it cool, Trigger, played it cool, (not that it stopped her sending me a text along the lines of "FUCKING HELL, I'm on the platform with Paul McCartney!")  Not-Paul-McCartney left just before the train arrived, then actual Paul McCartney walked up to Julia, smiled, and said "Hello. Would you like to travel to London with me?"  Unsurprisingly, she said yes and they chatted- she's had dealings with his son James, so there was common ground there, plus the music industry generally.
[And then the train arrived and it was absolutely rammed and they didn't get to sit together but tried to carry on talking but it was too noisy and his hearing isn't great any more, and Julia got off at Stratford, said goodbye, the end.]

We've wondered since if, what with him being Paul actual McCartney, it's a good strategy to choose someone to travel with, because it deflects too much attention from other people.
Or he fancied her. Or both.

mrpupkin

Is it about the idea that you create the world you live in, in the sense that your perception of other people and their motives is all projection? So you're only going to see love in the world if you approach it with love. Something like that. Seems like a good sentiment, and if you disagree you can fuck off

biggytitbo

So Paul had seen her before when she had worked with his son, or she was a complete stranger to him that he asked to travel with him?

Odd story, but I do like the idea he still strives to be normal when he could jet around everywhere if he wanted.

It reminds me a bit of his video for Press though, where he visits the London Underground almost like an explorer sampling the strange wildlife that exists on public transport.

Complete stranger to him.  And yes, he was travelling normal class, and chatting with passengers.  He politely declined people wanting to take photographs, but shook hands and signed things.

Apparently he sat opposite a bloke who was engrossed in a book, or his phone or whatever, and looked up after a few minutes to notice who was across from him with a genuine double-take, and an understandable  look of ".....WHU?!??"

wosl

The 'take'/'make' rhyme isn't the best [of The Beatles], is it. During the writing stage he very likely had "love you make" down as the pay-off line before he'd worked out the lead-up, drawn to it because of its universality and breadth of meaning, but as it happens that left him with a shortage of sensible, counterweight rhyme options (break? wake? shake??), backing him into "love you take," which sounds a bit snatchy and possessive, upsetting the balance and equanimity he was apparently striving for.

Twed

I'm trying to think of things that are analogous to this, and also rhyme. Not getting very far. Working on "And at the fete, the rake you take, is proportional to the cakes you bake".

wosl

"And in the end you love you give, is equal to the love you sieve".  Actually, it's a sentiment that ultimately thumbs its nose at attempts to box it up into a pat, rhymed form.  McCartney should've admitted defeat and tried something different (but that's not Paul's way, is it).

Quote from: Twed on February 23, 2019, 05:35:10 PM"You can think when you put your thick mind to it, McCartney boy".
I think this is it.  His unnecessarily snarky comment just makes me think "you're only saying you like those lyrics because they're the sort of things you write, which don't stand up to scrutiny."
So I am unfairly tarring McCartney with a vitriolic Lennon brush.*



*I'm not certain this makes any sense.


edit: adjusting my inept quoting.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: sick as a pike on February 25, 2019, 09:33:56 AM
Annoyingly, I didn't.
This is one of those stories that starts pretty well, then rapidly loses momentum...

(The day of the European Referendum, not that it's relevant.)
My partner who I will refer to here as "Julia," as that is her name, commutes from Folkestone to London by train.  I'd dropped her off at the station, and she changed trains to pick up the fast service at Ashford.  A couple of men wandered onto the platform, and she realised one of them was Paul McCartney.
She played it cool, Trigger, played it cool, (not that it stopped her sending me a text along the lines of "FUCKING HELL, I'm on the platform with Paul McCartney!")  Not-Paul-McCartney left just before the train arrived, then actual Paul McCartney walked up to Julia, smiled, and said "Hello. Would you like to travel to London with me?"  Unsurprisingly, she said yes and they chatted- she's had dealings with his son James, so there was common ground there, plus the music industry generally.
[And then the train arrived and it was absolutely rammed and they didn't get to sit together but tried to carry on talking but it was too noisy and his hearing isn't great any more, and Julia got off at Stratford, said goodbye, the end.]

We've wondered since if, what with him being Paul actual McCartney, it's a good strategy to choose someone to travel with, because it deflects too much attention from other people.
Or he fancied her. Or both.

Cool.

biggytitbo

Quote from: sick as a pike on February 25, 2019, 03:27:36 PM
I think this is it.  His unnecessarily snarky comment just makes me think "you're only saying you like those lyrics because they're the sort of things you write, which don't stand up to scrutiny."
So I am unfairly tarring McCartney with a vitriolic Lennon brush.*



*I'm not certain this makes any sense.


edit: adjusting my inept quoting.


John's perpetual snarkiness aside, apparently he used to have this thing where only he was allowed  to be bitchy about McCartney, if anyone else was he'd give them a right tearing down.

biggytitbo

Quote from: sick as a pike on February 25, 2019, 12:23:42 PM
Complete stranger to him.


If you're entirely honest would you  have been quite happy to let him give her one If the situation had arisen?

I can't say it didn't cross my mind. I mean he is, (as mentioned ) Paul actual McCartney.

For a while afterwards she joked to me that on emails to friends she was signing herself as "Julia McCartney."  Except when in the pub I mentioned the joke to one of the friends in question, the friend said "no, no, she really is doing that."
So who knows. Train toilet?