Author Topic: End of the World News (Dose me Up)  (Read 3832 times)

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2019, 07:24:08 PM »
I've recently become paralysed with existential fear. I liken death to being trapped in a tight box for time eternal. I guess oblivion is better than that scenario. But how can you enjoy oblivion when you will NEVER HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS AGAIN.

There wouldnt be anything to miss though because you wouldnt even know.

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2019, 07:28:53 PM »
There wouldnt be anything to miss though because you wouldnt even know.

I want to know.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2019, 01:17:52 PM »
Interesting to see so many kids in the street on Friday. As I have mentioned before, I don't think the world is going to end any time soon. In fact I have a load of threads from here bookmarked that I hope to bump in 20-30 years time and see people who predicted Mad Max are looking rather silly. What I would like to know is: why aren't we doing any more? I guess people on here are seriosuly suggesting that we boycott multinationals (don't know where you're going to get your computers and phones from), that we seriously reduce travel (easy to say, but then everyone's got an excuse - "I fly back to the UK twice a year to see family", and I'm not convinced by this argument that it's only rich businessmen flying), that industries collapse and new ones are born with the accompanying economic turmoil (fine, this always happens).

Point is, I find it hard to believe it is as easy as people say it is - take reusable bags to the supermarket and turn off the lights when you leave the room. Is it not the case that every serious measure that could be taken would be met with uproar from industry and consumers? See France. If we don't have to accept lower standards of living, how can this change occur? The communist revolution is not an acceptable answer. I've been saving for a house for a few years now so the end of private property would come as a real bummer. Forced abortions probably also count as lower standards of living before some bright spark pops up with the old over-population chestnut.

I always come back to this measurement of "if everyone lived like me, how would things work out?", to try and assure myself of my moral superiority. I barely drive, never fly, never waste food, spend £35 a month on energy... but I take part in society, go to the supermarket and eat meat, go to a fast food chain sometimes, print loads of paper at work, have my computer on 12 hours a day, charge my phone every day, do two loads of washing every weekend, slow cook things in the oven, all very average and reasonable but maybe deadly. How much of this needs to be disrupted (anywhere in the supply chain) for things to be OK? If it was too much then we can understand the reluctance to act.

Twit 2

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Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2019, 01:19:50 PM »
So have you read ‘The Inhabitable Earth’ or at least the article linked above (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html)? What makes you think all that’s wrong other than wishful thinking?

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2019, 01:26:52 PM »
that we seriously reduce travel (easy to say, but then everyone's got an excuse - "I fly back to the UK twice a year to see family", and I'm not convinced by this argument that it's only rich businessmen flying),

The answer to this is probably "stop grossly subsidising air travel compare to other forms" (and subsidise rail more).

Immediate economic knock-on effects of that can't be ignore. Would obliterate a bunch of airlines, in particular low-cost carriers, and have a big impact on a bunch of less economically developed countries that depend heavily on tourism. (Some of that might resolve itself given a few years as tourism refocused closer to home all over the shop.)

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2019, 01:33:16 PM »
So have you read ‘The Inhabitable Earth’ or at least the article linked above (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html)? What makes you think all that’s wrong other than wishful thinking?

Yes, sorry, I went off on a tangent there. Wishful thinking, yes, and that sydnrome which probably has a name in which people always think the present time is the worst in history, and the apocalypse is always round the corner. But I wouldn't argue with the science, only people's will to do anything about it.

The answer to this is probably "stop grossly subsidising air travel compare to other forms" (and subsidise rail more).

Immediate economic knock-on effects of that can't be ignore. Would obliterate a bunch of airlines, in particular low-cost carriers, and have a big impact on a bunch of less economically developed countries that depend heavily on tourism. (Some of that might resolve itself given a few years as tourism refocused closer to home all over the shop.)

An instructive example. No more tourism. I can accept this.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2019, 01:42:30 PM »
The other factor which is rarely mentioned is that the tipping point will not necessarily be the point where floods or famine or whatever cause the inevitable extinction of human beings but the point that will come before that when people realise it is inevitable. Ironically, the presence of deniers at this point might be temporarily helpful as it would be the only alternative to total nihilism (apart from maybe religious types readying us all for the rapture).

On small scale it’s a bit like pensions. Anyone under 40 knows they are utterly fucked and probably never retiring as there is no chance the increase in life expectancy is sustainable without an increase in working age population (which ironically will doom the lot of us anyway). At the moment people are in denial and pay their little bit in and cross-their-fingers. When they realise they never retiring then aside from paying bills what is motivation in working. Wasting lives in never ending shit jobs to buy shit we don’t need.

What you the world look like if we all just collectively stopped giving a shit? Hippy utopia and songs around the campfire or societal and economic collapse leading to mass poverty, war and annihilation.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2019, 02:02:16 PM »
An instructive example. No more tourism. I can accept this.

This is kinda what I’m talking about. How many people are willing to put up with shit jobs for 48 weeks a year knowing they have the reward of a couple of weeks in the Sun every year. Take that away from the working classes and it’s total desolation. I have a friend who is involved in environmental activism and is independently very wealthy and whose response to this was ”it’s only 6 hours to the South of France by Eurostar”.  When I laughed he couldn’t work out why.

You also have interesting situations where there was a CO2 analysis of the flower industry that showed flying fresh flowers to UK from Kenya where they are grown in greenhouses actually uses less CO2 that shipping them from Holland where they are grown using artificial light and heat sources. If you want to start to make changes we need to break every single human activity down to this level of analysis and then implement policy based on those findings (which if you then start cross-referencing and comparing activities that might have opposing outcomes becomes literally an infinitely large task).

—-

For me I would do the following.

1. Move as rapidly as possible to a non-Carbon based fuel for transportation and ensure a renewable network of energy sources is powering the electricity charging stations around the country.

2. Reintroduce subsidies for micro electricity production in homes including solar panels and even small scale wind for larger homes.

3. Introduce a carbon-tarif for goods travelling half-way around the world. It should never be cheaper to by lamb from New Zealand than from Wales in this country.

4. Incentivise business to only insist on face-to-face meetings where absolutely necessary. Conference calling and video conferencing to replace in person contact as default..

5. Remove the subsidy for airplane fuel to for low cost carriers ON THE CONDITION THAT THERE IS A TOTAL BAN FOR ALL INCLUDING POLITICIANS AND ROYALS ON PRIVATE JETS AND HELICOPTERS. I would just about be willing to compromise on that despite what I said above.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2019, 03:10:54 PM »
Oh god it's like reading /r/collapse again

In many cases we're actively prevented from being more environmentally conscious.  Ideally I'd rarely wash my clothes and wouldn't shower every day, but I can say from experience that's how you get your boss at work pulling you aside for a little word about body odor.  So you keep on doing 2+ machineloads of washing every week (wearing tops only once etc) and having a shower every day, because otherwise you risk losing your job and with it the means to keep yourself fed, watered and sheltered (not to mention friends, as people generally don't want to hang around someone who stinks)

Part of me thinks if it's a foregone conclusion that we're past the tipping point and already fucked, then we might as well enjoy ourselves a bit on the way out.  And who knows, maybe there'll be some amazing scientific breakthrough that saves us, and it'd be a shame to have wasted your life feeling miserable and hopeless

I'm against blatant senseless waste though like flying Theresa May to Brussels every other day to pose for some photos and repeat the "pls no backstop" / "no" thing for the 75th time.  At least for all its problems you get some enjoyment out of, say, a meat feast pizza

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2019, 03:17:27 PM »
Quote
guess people on here are seriosuly suggesting that we boycott multinationals (don't know where you're going to get your computers and phones from),

Huh?! The point of boycott is to change their behaviour, not necessarily put them out of business! When it's well targeted and well timed and well co-ordinated we've seen corporations panic and move very quickly.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2019, 03:25:09 PM »
An instructive example. No more tourism. I can accept this.

Well not "no more tourism" but more local tourism - which would have some regressive economic impact.

But…
Quote
I have a friend who is involved in environmental activism and is independently very wealthy and whose response to this was ”it’s only 6 hours to the South of France by Eurostar”.  When I laughed he couldn’t work out why.

I do think it's a bad sad that this is laughable.

Part of it is that we've made rail travel from Britain across Europe consistently more expensive than air travel. Which is mad.

But, yes, I appreciate it would involve adjusting expectations of travel times. (Mind you, people's impressions of air travel are usually badly skewed, because they neglect travel times to and from airports and how much time you have to spend in the hellish places themselves.)


BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2019, 03:47:41 PM »
I heard Rhyl is nice this time of year.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • You Go Careful There Now My Love
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2019, 04:08:20 PM »
I just assume no-one judging air travellers for their carbon footprint has any kids or car or house etc, rarely eats ready meals, buys foreign-produced fruit and veg and so on, so therefore in a more suitable position to cast such a judgement.

For my part I take about 16-20 flights a year, but otherwise tread fairly lightly on our once happy bauble.

Zetetic is right about train travel but similarly airlines should be advancing at a faster rate in terms of fuel efficiency and future technology.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2019, 04:20:08 PM »
I just assume no-one judging air travellers for their carbon footprint has any kids or car or house etc, rarely eats ready meals, buys foreign-produced fruit and veg and so on, so therefore in a more suitable position to cast such a judgement.

For my part I take about 16-20 flights a year, but otherwise tread fairly lightly on our once happy bauble.

Zetetic is right about train travel but similarly airlines should be advancing at a faster rate in terms of fuel efficiency and future technology.

Exactly. We all want to do better but our suggestions always seem to affect others more than oneself. I know I think that way.

If you want a good laugh at the perfect example it's here.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2018/11/13/thrifty-prince-charles-keeps-bag-scrap-material-repair-suits/

Tampon Charlie being praised for being "frugal" and "thrifty" and the "urgent need to move away from a 'throwaway society' towards a circular economy" because his personal tailors keep off-cuts of his clothes. The sentiment might be more meaningful if he told us which one of his spare palaces he keeps these clothes in and whether he uses his private helicopter or private train to travel between them.

chveik

  • it's summertime and all is fine!
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2019, 04:21:57 PM »
I just assume no-one judging air travellers for their carbon footprint has any kids or car or house etc, rarely eats ready meals, buys foreign-produced fruit and veg and so on, so therefore in a more suitable position to cast such a judgement.

For my part I take about 16-20 flights a year, but otherwise tread fairly lightly on our once happy bauble.

I don't do any of these things, but even if I did, 16-20 flights a year is still totally irresponsible.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • You Go Careful There Now My Love
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2019, 04:34:07 PM »
I don't do any of these things, but even if I did, 16-20 flights a year is totally irresponsible.

Being alive at all is totally irresponsible. You and I are both stinking the Earth up with our existence. I'm not seeking approval nor am I interested in your hysterical damnation, ta.

I'm content the causes I support and fund are the right ones, and the consumer choices I make weigh in below the average person of my age in terms of waste/carbon. I'm also not complacent and find improvements or acceptable alternatives where possible.

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2019, 04:36:09 PM »
I don't do any of these things, but even if I did, 16-20 flights a year is still totally irresponsible.

wha???

chveik

  • it's summertime and all is fine!
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2019, 04:45:48 PM »
Being alive at all is totally irresponsible. You and I are both stinking the Earth up with our existence. I'm not seeking approval nor am I interested in your hysterical damnation, ta.

I'm content the causes I support and fund are the right ones, and the consumer choices I make weigh in below the average person of my age in terms of waste/carbon. I'm also not complacent and find improvements or acceptable alternatives where possible.

I'm not hysterical at all, it's just obvious that flying so often is destructive to the environment. and don't give me the 'being alive is irresponsible' schtick, you know very well that I wasn't talking about that.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2019, 04:46:30 PM »
Being alive at all is totally irresponsible. You and I are both stinking the Earth up with our existence. I'm not seeking approval nor am I interested in your hysterical damnation, ta.

I'm content the causes I support and fund are the right ones, and the consumer choices I make weigh in below the average person of my age in terms of waste/carbon. I'm also not complacent and find improvements or acceptable alternatives where possible.

TBF if you took the Eurostar on your travels instead you could bring back unlimited booze on the train*.

*Terms subject to change after 29th March

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • You Go Careful There Now My Love
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2019, 05:28:45 PM »
I'm not hysterical at all, it's just obvious that flying so often is destructive to the environment. and don't give me the 'being alive is irresponsible' schtick, you know very well that I wasn't talking about that.

If the threshold is being destructive to the environment then it can only really be compared with other activities. As I say, the per passenger carbon load of that many flights is far less than anyone who drives to work/school run/shops every day (which doesn't mean either are good), and even less than the load involved in bringing a new pissing shitting creature into the world.

Overall I try to improve and do better where I can, year by year, and support any campaign going to improve fuel efficiency and transport tech, but my personal interests and available time make the flights inevitable and I won't be stopping. Overall, I think that's not obscene or 'totally irresponsible' in the context of what humans my age are usually up to.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2019, 06:16:18 PM »
Just done some calculations and reckon flying 10 times a year to Europe round trips is a little more CO2e than someone doing a load of tumble drying every day which I know my mate with a young baby does AND they flying to Spain on Wednesday. So use that information as you wish.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2019, 06:20:52 PM »
I can only agree with Z that flights should be taxed very heavily, globally. I reckon we could be creative enough to make enough fun for ourselves without short-haul flights entirely. It would make Shoulders (and others) sad for a bit, but he'd get over it and find something else to do.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2019, 06:33:07 PM »
The other factor which is rarely mentioned is that the tipping point will not necessarily be the point where floods or famine or whatever cause the inevitable extinction of human beings but the point that will come before that when people realise it is inevitable. Ironically, the presence of deniers at this point might be temporarily helpful as it would be the only alternative to total nihilism (apart from maybe religious types readying us all for the rapture).

On small scale it’s a bit like pensions. Anyone under 40 knows they are utterly fucked and probably never retiring as there is no chance the increase in life expectancy is sustainable without an increase in working age population (which ironically will doom the lot of us anyway). At the moment people are in denial and pay their little bit in and cross-their-fingers. When they realise they never retiring then aside from paying bills what is motivation in working. Wasting lives in never ending shit jobs to buy shit we don’t need.

What you the world look like if we all just collectively stopped giving a shit? Hippy utopia and songs around the campfire or societal and economic collapse leading to mass poverty, war and annihilation.

I recommend you read Octavia Butler's The Parable of the Sower for a merry glimpse of this possible near-future! (it's more of the latter than the former tbh)

Dex Sawash

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Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2019, 07:13:18 PM »
I heard Rhyl is nice this time of year.

steven's posting again?

Twit 2

  • Cyclone par l'immobile habité
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2019, 07:14:37 PM »
I just assume no-one judging air travellers for their carbon footprint has any kids or car or house etc, rarely eats ready meals, buys foreign-produced fruit and veg and so on, so therefore in a more suitable position to cast such a judgement.

For my part I take about 16-20 flights a year, but otherwise tread fairly lightly on our once happy bauble.

Zetetic is right about train travel but similarly airlines should be advancing at a faster rate in terms of fuel efficiency and future technology.

20 flights a year is an insane amount of pollution to be causing, surely? I don’t know exactly but ‘otherwise tread lightly’ doesn’t sound like it’ll balance that kind of profligacy at all? I’ve flown twice in two years and felt awful about it.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • You Go Careful There Now My Love
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2019, 07:15:37 PM »
I can only agree with Z that flights should be taxed very heavily, globally. I reckon we could be creative enough to make enough fun for ourselves without short-haul flights entirely. It would make Shoulders (and others) sad for a bit, but he'd get over it and find something else to do.

How about something slightly more nuanced like incentives to his emissions targets and penalties for non compliance?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • You Go Careful There Now My Love
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2019, 07:21:57 PM »
20 flights a year is an insane amount of pollution to be causing, surely? I don’t know exactly but ‘otherwise tread lightly’ doesn’t sound like it’ll balance that kind of profligacy at all? I’ve flown twice in two years and felt awful about it.

Those flights obviously wouldn't have existed or even taken off or caused pollution were it not for me specifically.

(I know what the counter to that is and yes it's true, I admit and agree)

However, if you have any kids or drive regularly you're basically already out of this game of moral judgement.

As I said above, there is no other option due to my available time and specific interests. I'd like that to be different and will do what I can, but I don't feel bad about it when I'm living a simple and from many points of view humble life otherwise

The onus should be on governments to regulate, incentivise and penalise rather than browbeating individuals who have different interests.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2019, 07:31:41 PM »
So have you read ‘The Inhabitable Earth’ or at least the article linked above (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html)? What makes you think all that’s wrong other than wishful thinking?

Wallace-Wells is describing a very unlikely worst-case scenario. Useful for sparking political change, but no use becoming suicidal over.

Cheer up, the greatest existential threat to human civilization remains (as always) nuclear war.

Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2019, 07:38:09 PM »
I can only agree with Z that flights should be taxed very heavily, globally. I reckon we could be creative enough to make enough fun for ourselves without short-haul flights entirely. It would make Shoulders (and others) sad for a bit, but he'd get over it and find something else to do.

Only if all private jets and helicopters too. The solution to climate change cannot be focused on taxing the poor out of travel.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: End of the World News (Dose me Up)
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2019, 07:48:10 PM »
Christ, yes, tax the fucking cunt out of the helicopters, what do you take me for?