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Tory Party Watch: parts 8245–8249 & 117

Started by Absorb the anus burn, March 02, 2019, 11:16:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dr Trouser

I hope it's Hammond - that would be brilliant

biggytitbo

Its odd they would announce it the day before the local elections when they could easily have sat on it to friday or next week. They must be *really* sure. I wouldn't take Williamsons denials as anything, he is an idiotic child after all.

Hey, Punk!

Quote from: imitationleather on March 04, 2019, 10:22:13 PM
The worst thing about Chris Grayling is that he looks like he's in a window for a suit shop but they've run out of and mannequins so have just tethered a balloon with a face drawn on it to the collar.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, he has done to destroy transport in this country can be worse than that.

He's also Bald

Hey, Punk!

I have to say that I'm not a fan of the rhetoric surrounding police cuts. All of a sudden we (lefties) support one of the most useless and oppressive forces simply because the tories are taking money from them? If we are to make cuts (which I'm not saying we do), the police would be one of the places we should make them. Especially considering the fact that most nations with less punitive justice systems and weaker police have far less criminal activity and recidivism.

Fambo Number Mive

They might want to try to show that May is being a strong leader or something

biggytitbo

One of the tories most consistent attack lines is that labour are a danger to national security - the tory defence minister getting sacked for leaking official secrets doesn't help that does it? Doesn't seem any political advantage at all to doing this now, other than disarray and incompetence.

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: Hey, Punk! on May 02, 2019, 08:04:09 AM
I have to say that I'm not a fan of the rhetoric surrounding police cuts. All of a sudden we support one of the most useless and oppressive forces simply because the tories are taking money from them? If we are to make cuts (which I'm not saying we do), the police would be one of the places we should make them. Especially considering the fact that most nations with less punitive justice systems and weaker police have far less criminal activity and recidivism.

The alternative would to be to call for police to be reformed and to be more answerable to the communities they serve and less answerable to the government. The police are deeply flawed, but I'm not sure who else I should call if I see someone being attacked or if I find out that someone is sexually abusing people. I'm not sure which nations have weaker police - we are one of the few nations in the world that doesn't routinely arm police. There are other ways we can reduce the crime rate such as reducing poverty but these won't take place without a left wing government and even with a left wing government these solutions will take time.

Even if Britain had a socialist government and almost no equality there would still be crime. Some people commit crime because they are poor, some because they are unwell. And some do because they enjoy it or are just bad people. What left-wing solutions would stop a serial killer, for example? I think society will always need some form of police as the reasons people do bad things are complex.

Better funded police will be less stressed so will be less likely to take things out on the public, and increased funding will also mean that investigations will be more likely to be done properly meaning less wrongful convictions.

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: biggytitbo on May 02, 2019, 08:18:10 AM
One of the tories most consistent attack lines is that labour are a danger to national security - the tory defence minister getting sacked for leaking official secrets doesn't help that does it? Doesn't seem any political advantage at all to doing this now, other than disarray and incompetence.

True. I suppose it could look worse if it came out later and the line was that the Tories covered it up during the local elections? But you do have a good point.

Paul Calf

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
The alternative would to be to call for police to be reformed and to be more answerable to the communities they serve and less answerable to the government. The police are deeply flawed, but I'm not sure who else I should call if I see someone being attacked or if I find out that someone is sexually abusing people. I'm not sure which nations have weaker police - we are one of the few nations in the world that doesn't routinely arm police. There are other ways we can reduce the crime rate such as reducing poverty but these won't take place without a left wing government and even with a left wing government these solutions will take time.

Even if Britain had a socialist government and almost no equality there would still be crime. Some people commit crime because they are poor, some because they are unwell. And some do because they enjoy it or are just bad people. What left-wing solutions would stop a serial killer, for example? I think society will always need some form of police as the reasons people do bad things are complex.

Better funded police will be less stressed so will be less likely to take things out on the public, and increased funding will also mean that investigations will be more likely to be done properly meaning less wrongful convictions.

Well, the idea is to reduce the incidence of crime by removing the things that cause it, rather than letting underemployment, poverty and racism to fester and arming the police so they can shoot people when they react to the appalling inequality and injustice that the society we've created has caused.

I don't see how anyone who isn't a full-on authoritarian wouldn't understand this.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:19:24 AMWhat left-wing solutions would stop a serial killer, for example? I think society will always need some form of police as the reasons people do bad things are complex.

Serial killers are very often the result of traumatic or abusive childhoods. A stronger safety net of social workers, and more options for therapy for children would do more to stop people becoming serial killers than expecting the police to catch them once they have murdered a bunch of people.

Hey, Punk!

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
Even if Britain had a socialist government and almost no equality there would still be crime. Some people commit crime because they are poor, some because they are unwell. And some do because they enjoy it or are just bad people. What left-wing solutions would stop a serial killer, for example? I think society will always need some form of police as the reasons people do bad things are complex.

I didn't say there shouldn't be a system to deal with anti-social activity. Your recourse to the notion that some people are simply 'bad' or 'enjoy it' is naive, to say that there are people who are born with certain behaviors is incorrect. A personality is a conditioned thing (which it still would be under socialism before you take that angle) dependent upon context, yes society is complex, but that is counter to your notion. Cruelty can be accounted for even if the pressure of poverty and mental illness aren't the explanations, boredom being one.

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: Paul Calf on May 02, 2019, 08:23:44 AM
Well, the idea is to reduce the incidence of crime by removing the things that cause it, rather than letting underemployment, poverty and racism to fester and arming the police so they can shoot people when they react to the appalling inequality and injustice that the society we've created has caused.

I don't see how anyone who isn't a full-on authoritarian wouldn't understand this.

Re your first paragraph, that's what I referred to when I said "There are other ways we can reduce the crime rate such as reducing poverty but these won't take place without a left wing government and even with a left wing government these solutions will take time."

How much of crime is " react[ing] to the appalling inequality and injustice that the society we've created has caused" and how much of it is due to other reasons?

Hey, Punk!

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:37:06 AM
How much of crime is " react[ing] to the appalling inequality and injustice that the society we've created has caused" and how much of it is due to other reasons?

I would say that most criminal activity is conditioned by the ideology of our day or a result of material pressures. The industrial process led to the city, which led to the closer proximity of large amounts of people, which lead to killers being able to access more potential victims. This is just one element, to talk of an almost metaphysical criminal character is contrary to a true materialist analysis of society. Human beings can choose, but not within conditions of their creation.

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: Hey, Punk! on May 02, 2019, 08:36:04 AM
I didn't say there shouldn't be a system to deal with anti-social activity. Your recourse to the notion that some people are simply 'bad' or 'enjoy it' is naive, to say that there are people who are born with certain behaviors is incorrect. A personality is a conditioned thing (which it still would be under socialism before you take that angle) dependent upon context, yes society is complex, but that is counter to your notion. Cruelty can be accounted for even if the pressure of poverty and mental illness aren't the explanations, boredom being one.

What would a system to deal with anti-social activity look like and how different would it be from my suggestion of a police force which is accountable to the communities it serves rather than being accountable to the Home Secretary and elected police and crime commissioners?

Why is it naive to think that there will always be bad people or people who enjoy treating people in sadistic ways?

True, boredom is a reason for people committing crime and the only reasons I can think of to stop boredom is to make people feel less alienated from society and improve access to things to do. Cutting local facilities such as leisure centers increases boredom.




Hey, Punk!

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Why is it naive to think that there will always be bad people or people who enjoy treating people in sadistic ways?

I think it naive to think that there aren't social explanations for this, you worded it in a way which indicated it is almost an ontological quality of humanity. I agree with what you say mostly, my original comment was more about the police as it exists, I don't think the notion that an increase in crime is caused by police cuts is the line we should be going with.

Hey, Punk!

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 02, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
True, boredom is a reason for people committing crime and the only reasons I can think of to stop boredom is to make people feel less alienated from society and improve access to things to do. Cutting local facilities such as leisure centers increases boredom.

Agree 100%.

BlodwynPig


BlodwynPig

Quote from: Hey, Punk! on May 02, 2019, 08:42:41 AM
I would say that most criminal activity is conditioned by the ideology of our day or a result of material pressures. The industrial process led to the city, which led to the closer proximity of large amounts of people, which lead to killers being able to access more potential victims. This is just one element, to talk of an almost metaphysical criminal character is contrary to a true materialist analysis of society. Human beings can choose, but not within conditions of their creation.

Why do you Paul Calf as your avatar?

Johnny Yesno

I don't know if this has been posted in the local elections thread, as I haven't had time to read it, but democracy in the UK is dying under the tories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-47967416

QuoteNorthamptonshire County Council: No local elections for cash-crisis county

QuoteFrom 2020, it is planned that the council will no longer exist. It is due to be scrapped, along with seven other district and borough councils in Northamptonshire, to make way for two new unitary authorities.

Elections were due at all of the other councils, but because of the county council's crisis Communities Secretary James Brokenshire said polls "would involve significant costs that would be hard to justify" and they have been cancelled.

QuoteVotes were due at the borough councils of Corby, Kettering, Northampton and Wellingborough as well as at district councils for East Northamptonshire, South Northamptonshire and Daventry.

No new date for elections has been announced, and there could potentially be a wait beyond 2020 for voters.

In March, local council leaders stated fears that the government is now too busy with Brexit to approve the two new unitary authorities before their proposed introduction in April 2020.

Northamptonshire county council is tory controlled, as mentioned in this scathing article:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/no-local-elections-northamptonshire-county-council-this-week-how-convenient

BlodwynPig

how convenient??? how absolutely death penalty criminally incompetent more like.

gah, this heart attack that has been threatening me get closer to reality

olliebean

Similar situation to the MEP elections, except in that case the "undemocratic" EU has laws that ensure its citizens can't be disenfranchised like this.

Paul Calf

In a certain light, this might look like Private Eye doing government propaganda.


idunnosomename

it is a feat I wouldn't have thought possible, but eric pickles has let himself go


Replies From View


BlodwynPig



pancreas


kalowski

In one sentence - everything I hate about the Tory party
QuoteAnother former cabinet minister said they now regarded May as the "worst PM in living memory", but that removing her now could precipitate a disastrous general election
"We don't care what is happening to the country as long as we stay in power"

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: kalowski on May 05, 2019, 04:40:27 PM
In one sentence - everything I hate about the Tory party"We don't care what is happening to the country as long as we stay in power"

Well said.

Any Tory interviewed should be reminded THEY PROPPED HER UP

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Rory Stewart, a suspected product of incest who looks like there is a disease eating his face wants to be PM. That's nice for him, can I be PM too