Tory Party Watch: parts 8245–8249 & 117

[jamiefairlie]

When you are a nationalist psychopath your hobby horse trumps all other issues including, bizarrely of all, the reason everyone is actually on the left - social justice.

It's funny though because the SNP vote against the Tories all the time in Westminster, so not sure they can do much more there, and Scotland is miles ahead of England in terms  of social policy and  actual results, so not much to criticize there either.

What is the problem? Are you hurt because the SNP is actually better than Labour in helping people or are you just a nasty little British Nationalist who can't stand the idea of the Jocks getting above themselves?

[BlodwynPig]

Shoulders is a conscientious British nationalist, sadly.

Edit: oh you already called him that

Bald nationalist then.

[Clatty McCutcheon]

It's funny though because the SNP vote against the Tories all the time in Westminster, so not sure they can do much more there, and Scotland is miles ahead of England in terms  of social policy and  actual results, so not much to criticize there either.

What is the problem? Are you hurt because the SNP is actually better than Labour in helping people or are you just a nasty little British Nationalist who can't stand the idea of the Jocks getting above themselves?

For some reason, it appears that Scotland is not entitled to develop any distinctive political culture of its own.  The correct approach is simply fall into line with whatever the self-righteous Labourites in a neighbouring polity with 10 times as large a population decree to be the true and proper course. And call them psychopaths if they express dissent. That definitely seems like an enlightened worldview.

[Rizla]

Yes, I know where the SNP votes largely came from. But it's laughable that you think the SNP will ever give you a socialist country. All you SNP voters have done is ensure that the UK will never be a socialist country.

Christ came blood out his cock on the cross. What the SNP will give us is an INDEPENDENT country where we can (and will, I recks) VOTE for SOCIALIST PARTIES if we choose to do so, not be HOGTIED to a bunch of RAVING BREXIT PARTY VOTING RACISTS and forced to DANCE TO THEIR FUCKING SHIT TUNE. Blaming Scotland for England not getting the socialism you want is just mental.

Do you think that we vote SNP cos we love SNP and want SNP to be in power always cos we love SNP. That is really not the case. Really not.

[jamiefairlie]

Christ came blood out his cock on the cross. What the SNP will give us is an INDEPENDENT country where we can (and will, I recks) VOTE for SOCIALIST PARTIES if we choose to do so, not be HOGTIED to a bunch of RAVING BREXIT PARTY VOTING RACISTS and forced to DANCE TO THEIR FUCKING SHIT TUNE. Blaming Scotland for England not getting the socialism you want is just mental.

Do you think that we vote SNP cos we love SNP and want SNP to be in power always cos we love SNP. That is really not the case. Really not.

Yes indeedy! The SNP is just a vehicle to deliver indepndence, after that the government will be whatever Scots decide it is. Going by the voting record, that will almost always be left leaning, every GE since 1959 has had majority Labour or SNP (14 elections). The equiavlent number for the rest of the UK excluding Scotland is 4, with Tories on top the other 10 times.

[jamiefairlie]

For some reason, it appears that Scotland is not entitled to develop any distinctive political culture of its own.  The correct approach is simply fall into line with whatever the self-righteous Labourites in a neighbouring polity with 10 times as large a population decree to be the true and proper course. And call them psychopaths if they express dissent. That definitely seems like an enlightened worldview.

What i wonder is if it's the general UN principle of self-detrmination they despise: "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."?

Would tbey have objected so strongly to the Irish indepednce movement, were thay all psychopaths? Should Ireland rejoin the UK in a show of solidarity? Are they selfish staying out there on their own, with their I'm alright Jack selfishness?

Or the other European nations that have achieved independence in the last 20 years:  Montenegro,  Serbia,  Moldova, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia, Ukraine, Lithuania - all psychos too?

Maybe it's just leaving the warm embrace of mother Britain? How about these guys, they must be queuing up to rejoin eh? - Afghanistan, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia , The Bahamas , Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana , Brunei  (I'll stop at B...). Yeah those guys must be full of fucking  nutters, wanting their own countries when  they could have Britain making all those tough decision.


But, you know, if they don't object to any of those, then is it just Scotland? Is Scotland unique amongst countries in the whole world that it doesn't deserve self-determination?

I really do wonder.

[jamiefairlie]

Anyway, Tories...cunts eh? Something we surely can all agree on.

Looks like Johnson has it in the bag. I predict:

1) Makes a big show of how he's going back to the EU to renegotiate from a position of strength
2) Will be told to, diplomatically, "Va te faire foutre"
3) Will make a big fuss in the media about how he's telling the EU what's going to happen but that we must prepare for no-deal to show Johnny Foreigner we're not messing about this time
4) Oct 31st will come, big flurry of actions, he'll ignore parliamentary conventions by appealing directly to the people, aided by a media onslaught, and the UK will leave the EU with no-deal.
5) He calls a GE and wins on a wave of Falklands style national fervour.

[BlodwynPig]

Anyway, Tories...cunts eh? Something we surely can all agree on.

Looks like Johnson has it in the bag. I predict:

1) Makes a big show of how he's going back to the EU to renegotiate from a position of strength
2) Will be told to, diplomatically, "Va te faire foutre"
3) Will make a big fuss in the media about how he's telling the EU what's going to happen but that we must prepare for no-deal to show Johnny Foreigner we're not messing about this time
4) Oct 31st will come, big flurry of actions, he'll ignore parliamentary conventions by appealing directly to the people, aided by a media onslaught, and the UK will leave the EU with no-deal.
5) He calls a GE and wins on a wave of Falklands style national fervour.

Can we THEN go bananas?

[jamiefairlie]

Can we THEN go bananas?

As long as the're bendy, which they all wil be as you'll be free of the evil Eurocrats and their nefarious fruit-based plots!

[BlodwynPig]

What i wonder is if it's the general UN principle of self-detrmination they despise: "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."?

Would tbey have objected so strongly to the Irish indepednce movement, were thay all psychopaths? Should Ireland rejoin the UK in a show of solidarity? Are they selfish staying out there on their own, with their I'm alright Jack selfishness?

Or the other European nations that have achieved independence in the last 20 years:  Montenegro,  Serbia,  Moldova, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia, Ukraine, Lithuania - all psychos too?

Maybe it's just leaving the warm embrace of mother Britain? How about these guys, they must be queuing up to rejoin eh? - Afghanistan, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia , The Bahamas , Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana , Brunei  (I'll stop at B...). Yeah those guys must be full of fucking  nutters, wanting their own countries when  they could have Britain making all those tough decision.


But, you know, if they don't object to any of those, then is it just Scotland? Is Scotland unique amongst countries in the whole world that it doesn't deserve self-determination?

I really do wonder.

You buy your home
And follow a dream
No politics here
Just self esteem

A heart warms up
To where you feel home
No bastard rule of religion
Soil surrounds the stone

You get nothing for nothing
And souls do not exist
There is a concept of doom
Nature abhors a vacuum
The hardship of the Scots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6h4b-Jm8iU

[Fambo Number Mive]

Should we have a seperate thread for discussing Scottish independence and the SNP?

[Old Nehamkin]

What i wonder is if it's the general UN principle of self-determination they despise: "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."?

Would they have objected so strongly to the Irish independence movement, were they all psychopaths? Should Ireland rejoin the UK in a show of solidarity? Are they selfish staying out there on their own, with their I'm alright Jack selfishness?

That would seem to be the logical conclusion of the view taken by Shoulders et al., yes.

I've supported Scottish independence for more or less my whole adult life because I think we've got a very real chance of evolving into a Scandinavian-style social democracy and escaping the horrifying death cult of austerity.  Maybe that's realistic, maybe it isn't, but I don't feel like a psychopath for believing it.

[Cuellar]

Despite the fact that it would leave us in a Tory ridden hell hole, I support Scottish independence wholeheartedly.

[Johnny Yesno]

Despite the fact that it would leave us in a Tory ridden hell hole, I support Scottish independence wholeheartedly.

I understand the motivation and I do think Shoulders's 'psychopaths' comment was uncalled for. Sorry I got a bit heated upthread.

What I would ask is for SNP voters to try and show a bit of understanding of Corbyn's 'fence-sitting' regarding brexit. The numbers are far more tricky now Labour can't rely on the Scottish vote, and it means weaning the less ardent brexit voters off the diet of anti-EU sentiment they've been fed for so long, and concentrating fire on the real villains, the tories. They absolutely have to go, which, lets face it, was why you turned to the SNP - it wasn't an endorsement of remaining in the EU at that time.

I'd also appreciate it if you could desist from the whole England-Scotland marriage analogy. That really does rankle when so many of us English are being punished by these cunts. We don't have the solution of independence available, so we've gone for the option of turning the Labour party back into the party for the people it was meant to represent. We're not just sitting on our hands, like some of you seem to think. And please think before you go on about London. By all means, attack Westminster, but there are fuckloads of homeless people in London and the South East who are not seeing the benefits of the London-centric bubble. The tories are hurting everyone who isn't part of their elite.

Lastly, and apologies for repeating myself, but for my entire life, I've thought of England and Scotland as regions of the same country. I don't give a flying fuck about football so it means nothing to me that their are national teams, any more than it means anything to me that their are two Manchester teams. For that pile of crap 'hobby' to make sense, you have to have some sort of rivalry, I suppose. I just ignored it because, petty rivalries aside, the union seemed pretty stable. My parents and I didn't have to worry about the threat of violence when crossing the border (hell, I was never really 100% sure when we were crossing the border) and visiting my relatives. On that score, it's not really a fair comparison to mention Ireland, where there has been a recent history of violence. They need to do what they need to do to stop that recurring, and giving brexit front and centre attention is completely understandable.

[mr. logic]

Wasn't there a quite a lot of support for the Tories in Scotland in the 2017 election?

[Old Nehamkin]

Wasn't there a quite a lot of support for the Tories in Scotland in the 2017 election?

By Scottish standards, yes. The Tory vote share increased from 14.9% to 28.6% (compared to 42.4% UK-wide, 45.4% in England and 33.6% in Wales). In the wake of Scottish Labour's implosion 2015 they were able to cement themselves as the primary anti-independence party and hoover up a lot of votes from people who saw them as the only effective opposition to the SNP.

A very upsetting and worrying development, obviously, but 28.6% is still a lower share than the Tories have ever dropped to at a UK-wide level.

[Johnny Yesno]

In the wake of Scottish Labour's implosion 2015 they were able to cement themselves as the primary anti-independence party and hoover up a lot of votes from people who saw them as the only effective opposition to the SNP.

This is a similar situation to brexit. Blinded by a single issue into voting for psychopaths.

[Pinckle Wicker]

This is a similar situation to brexit. Blinded by a single issue into voting for psychopaths.

It's not a single issue though and also explain why they (SNP) are psychotic and by extension you must mean voters too? The rationale and explanation has been made abundantly clear on this thread why independence is so important yet you constantly troll and only throw insults with no proper argument. 

[NoSleep]

This is a similar situation to brexit. Blinded by a single issue into voting for psychopaths.

It isn't blindness at all. It's a simple solution to the problem of their right wing neighbouring country perpetually fucking up their opportunities to become more socialist and remaining in the EU. I might emigrate if they leave the Union.

[Johnny Yesno]

It's not a single issue though and also explain why they (SNP) are psychotic

I didn't say the SNP were psychotic (or psychopaths). Try reading my post again, including the quoted text.

It isn't blindness at all. It's a simple solution to the problem of their right wing neighbouring country perpetually fucking up their opportunities to become more socialist and remaining in the EU. I might emigrate if they leave the Union.

You could try reading it again too.

[Paul Calf]

It isn't blindness at all. It's a simple solution to the problem of their right wing neighbouring country perpetually fucking up their opportunities to become more socialist and remaining in the EU. I might emigrate if they leave the Union.

I've considered it a lot. I love Scotland and would love to live there - I used to spend half my time there, when I had a choice about where I spent my time. The trouble is, there aren't that many tech jobs.

[Pinckle Wicker]

This is a similar situation to brexit. Blinded by a single issue into voting for psychopaths.

Read it again. Tell me what I was wrong about then.

[Johnny Yesno]

Read it again. Tell me what I was wrong about then.

FFS, this was the post I quoted when I talked about being blinded into voting for psychopaths. I will add some helpful bold text.

By Scottish standards, yes. The Tory vote share increased from 14.9% to 28.6% (compared to 42.4% UK-wide, 45.4% in England and 33.6% in Wales). In the wake of Scottish Labour's implosion 2015 they were able to cement themselves as the primary anti-independence party and hoover up a lot of votes from people who saw them as the only effective opposition to the SNP.

A very upsetting and worrying development, obviously, but 28.6% is still a lower share than the Tories have ever dropped to at a UK-wide level.

[NoSleep]

You could try reading it again too.

You use the word blinded, yes. I don't think it is blindness to separate from the mass of (psychopathic) right wing cunts that prop up the Tories (and the Brexit Party) in England.

[greenman]

It isn't blindness at all. It's a simple solution to the problem of their right wing neighbouring country perpetually fucking up their opportunities to become more socialist and remaining in the EU. I might emigrate if they leave the Union.

The growth in SNP support predates the EU referendum of course and honestly if you had to say who you trusted more to care about a serious shift towards greater social justice who would it be Corbyn or the SNP? The latter to me still give off a rather Lib Dem like opportunist vibe.

[Johnny Yesno]

You use the word blinded, yes. I don't think it is blindness to separate from the mass of right wing cunts that prop up the Tories in England.

Oh ffs, you people. Once you get a mistaken idea in your head, it's impossible to correct it.

[Pinckle Wicker]

The growth in SNP support predates the EU referendum of course and honestly if you had to say who you trusted more to seriously care about a serious shift towards greater social justice who would it be Corbyn or the SNP? The latter to me still give off a rather Lib Dem like opportunist vibe.

What experience of their governance draws you to this opinion? You realise the situation of devolution in Scotland of course am guessing.

[NoSleep]

The growth in SNP support predates the EU referendum of course and honestly if you had to say who you trusted more to seriously care about a serious shift towards greater social justice who would it be Corbyn or the SNP? The latter to me still give off a rather Lib Dem like opportunist vibe.

But it isn't about the SNP, it's about what happens after independence. You're conflating independence with with the means of achieving it.

[Pinckle Wicker]

Oh ffs, you people. Once you get a mistaken idea in your head, it's impossible to correct it.

Could you elaborate further on what you mean by 'mistaken idea' for me please?

[NoSleep]

Oh ffs, you people. Once you get a mistaken idea in your head, it's impossible to correct it.

Perhaps explaining yourself better; still have no idea what I'm apparently missing; you likened voting for the SNP to voting for psychopaths.