Remember lads, subscribe to PewDiePie or Christchurch Mosques Shooting

[chveik]

I think what's more important perhaps is to stand firm.  Stand up for compassion, love, empathy, every single time. 

Every time someone shuts the fuck up and backs down because they're scared the bigger boys will rip the piss, every time they stand back and let heartless cunts set the agenda, the world gets a little darker.  All of us can stop that just by living a bit stronger from now on. 

Stand up for love, cunts.  Stand up for Love.

"too late to wish I'd be stronger"

this is depressing me no end.

[chveik]

Maybe the video should be compulsory viewing so everyone knows exactly who and what they're encouraging by spewing hate and racism (Islamophobia). If they want to carry on after seeing what it leads to, at least they can't live in denial about what it is they're part of.

no, people shouldn't watch the video. you're playing the killer's game.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

From what I could tell from skimming that shit-show forum, I don't think he was really well known on 8chan. He just launched his stream there. And he wouldn't have been able to read their comments.

People post anonymously there. Nobody is well known. He just turned up one day, announced his intentions, and the link to the live stream.

[Barry Admin]

I really think people here are reading too much into the meme stuff. These people often style themselves in the trappings of whatever outsider media they've become unhealthily obsessed with - we've seen it time and time again with video games and films - yet for some reason, because he adopts trashier elements of the internet, it's somehow different, more alarming, than all those previous psychos and their morbid fascinations; Basketball Diaries, Clockwork Orange, Marilyn Manson, etc.

edit; quick clarification; I draw a distinction between meme culture, and the actual sincere hate speech of the alt right

What bothers me about the meme stuff is how it turns so much of this into a big joke - the guy was creating viral fucking moments, so that his renown would increase, and so that he would radicalise others.

He starts off with the Pewdiepie line, which is a joke, as far as I'm concerned. The idea being that he's in some way doing it to engage in the battle for subs that Pewdiepie has been waging with T-Series for months now. There's a lot of talk about how he is also intending to stoke the culture wars, and that's likely true. But he kicks off with that line, then puts on Serbia Stronf, aka "Remove Kebab." Now, removed from all context, this is actually a great piece of music - it's positively jaunty. He also wrote "Remove Kebab" on one of his guns, as a racist feedline.

It's that kind of thing that really bothers me here. He seems desperate to incite others, and he's reaching out specifically to people who have already dehumanised anyone who isn't white. Hanging around somewhere like /pol/ means a constant bombardment of "race realism", and this guy has spoken directly to those people, and told them to take the next step.

[Urinal Cake]

I'm not sure about all of that. I don't know about the other 2 but I'm pretty sure Ben Shapiro doesn't go around advocating killing sprees. This crazy NZ killer is supposed to represent all of alt right and internet whereas ISIS attacks don't represent all of Islam (which of course it shouldn't).

From what I gather neither does the killer- it's a political and cultural act aimed at reducing Muslim immigration and populations across Europe. Shapiro, Don Jnr etc just strike me as insincere because they're scared people will see the similarities between what they say and what he said. It's a fear of 'the thin edge of the wedge' argument used on them. Shapiro had no such hesitation in naming Muslims as mass murderers before

Yes, I remember how the laws drastically changed after Omar Mateen murdered 49 people at a gay nightclub and after Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik murdered 14 at a community center

https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/964257886749671424
And everyone knows who Osama Bin Laden and the jist of militant Islam.

[Cloud]

I'm not buying into the learning from video games thing much.  It's pretty obvious as much as I hate the thought, that if you want someone dead, you shoot the struggling half-dead person a second time.

Complete tangent but following the thread, I really do feel the comments about logging off.  But also I've made and maintained some of my best friends online, so it can be used for good.  Fuck the cunts using it for evil, they're not going to win.

Left wing news outlets are disturbingly gleeful about this massacre because it suits their 'White man bad / Muslim good' narrative. ISIS are threatening to retaliate by committing a similar atrocity in the west. It's as if different groups don't mix and forced diversity leads to conflict.

Just to add another "fuck off you complete twat".

The thing is, from the start it was a bunch of nerdy white guys throwing around racist and misogynistic slurs. It operated in a weird time on the internet in the early 2000s when people seemed to act like racism was no longer a thing, and so ironic racism could never be mistaken for real racism - because we all knew nobody was actually racist anymore. But no matter what, it was a website that punched out at black people, at women. Even if purportedly as a joke, it didn't stop it being just a fucking cesspit of bigoted shit. It was the start of an internet culture that's seeped out and become an enormous part of real-world culture, where it's cool to act with no empathy, and totally coincidentally that energy is almost entirely directed at non-white, non-straight, non-male people.

I'm not even sure what I'm saying. Fuck me.

Fairly sure I agree with you.   There's still a part of me though that says everyone should be free to act like offensive little twats saying everything opposite to what mature adults are saying, especially kids (which I think a lot of 4chan is, despite the 18+ rule), I was an offensive little twat once too and I dunno, maybe some people learn right from wrong while growing up by being wrong in a safe environment.  But the other part of me says no because it's no longer a safe environment, it's a dangerous breeding ground.  I dunno what I'm saying either, just rambling

I think what's more important perhaps is to stand firm.  Stand up for compassion, love, empathy, every single time. 

Every time someone shuts the fuck up and backs down because they're scared the bigger boys will rip the piss, every time they stand back and let heartless cunts set the agenda, the world gets a little darker.  All of us can stop that just by living a bit stronger from now on. 

Stand up for love, cunts.  Stand up for Love.

I wish I could add like 1000 karma for this.  Beautifully said.

[Zetetic]

As a wider point, it's not always necessary or desirable to quote something in full to respond it, particularly when its a load of hideous tripe intended to wind people up.

You're still adding another echo, another exposure, even if you're going to call the author a fuckwit.

[Urinal Cake]

Some slightly good news for those who favour payback.
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-16/senator-fraser-anning-egged/10908694
The egg-boy was released without charge. I think Anning will get away with defending himself or automatic reaction. Other videos show a man in black choke holding him and a man in white doing the chicken wing and then both of them laying on top of him. Also a guy in jean shorts kicking him while he's down. That's not reasonable force so they should be charged.

I remember I was one of the few people who said people should not sucker punch Nazis like Richard Spencer but this egg-boy is a small hero. Stood his ground and using only one hand.

[Moribunderast]

Some slightly good news for those who favour payback.
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-16/senator-fraser-anning-egged/10908694
The egg-boy was released without charge. I think Anning will get away with defending himself or automatic reaction. Other videos show a man in black choke holding him and a man in white doing the chicken wing and then both of them laying on top of him. Also a guy in jean shorts kicking him while he's down. That's not reasonable force so they should be charged.

I remember I was one of the few people who said people should not sucker punch Nazis like Richard Spencer but this egg-boy is a small hero. Stood his ground and using only one hand.

Haha, just came to post this, UC. That boy is indeed a bit of a hero. An egging is acceptable barely-violent retaliation to an utter fuckwit, in my book. Note that Neil Erikson's buddies immediately went OTT with their reaction and one had to be talked down from choking the boy unconscious when he was already down. Would love to see charges laid. Anning will escape charges but he can be mocked for being a shit puncher AND for having a go at a kid.

[Barry Admin]

[ajsmith2]

Wish that egg had been a capsule of permanent brown dye.

[Crisps?]

Reddit's like a shit Usenet with terrible threading and a central owner. Whereas anyone can start a newsgroup, subreddits like "watchpeopledie" exist because the owners of reddit allow it, at least until the negative attention becomes too much, as now.

Anyone justifying their use of a website that chooses to allow shit like that needs to have a word with themselves.

The ABC "egging" link seems to have gone.

[Hundhoon]

 this far right terrorism keeps happening in countries that are totally unprepared for it.

New Zealand is a lot like Norway, both tiny countries, both have only 5 million people. are both the safest countries on earth.
New Zealand does not even have 40 percent the population of London, has a smaller population than East Anglia.

[Buelligan]

The insane idea that ones freedom, right, to entertain oneself by watching people in their moments of sacred privacy and anguish, uninvited, even exists is unarguably horrific.  It's at the base of much that wrong with humanity (and the internet). 

All ego, no compassion.  All me, fuck you.  Everyone that joins the outrage about having their "freedom" taken away is being sucked into opening their souls to a mindset that says it's righteous to do what you will and fuck the world.  Incredibly dangerous.  Incredibly wrong.

Respect, empathy, dignity, can be ignored, just words.  But freedom, oh freedom, it has them by the cock and can force previously reasonable people to destroy their own humanity, their civilisation, in the name of their Civilisation. 

Freedom my fucking arse.

[bgmnts]

There isn't a website called Watch People Die. Surely?
That's a bit disturbing.

Watching sentient beings dying/die is one of the most horrible things I have seen, why people want to watch that I do not know.

[Mr Banlon]

Some excellent swears : https://twitter.com/hpstorian/status/1106841718324756482

[Mr Eggs]

There isn't a website called Watch People Die. Surely?
That's a bit disturbing.

Watching sentient beings dying/die is one of the most horrible things I have seen, why people want to watch that I do not know.

You've never been to North Yorkshire.

[Crisps?]

There isn't a website called Watch People Die. Surely?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities

"We stand for free speech" AKA child porn pays our mortgage.

[touchingcloth]

Isn't Pewdiepie aimed at kids, like pre-teen kids? Amongst all of the horrors of the shootings, it blows my mind that someone would ask people to subscribe to him in the midst of it all. It's like if Harris and Klebold had approached a CCTV camera and asked people to watch Nicktoons.

[Zetetic]

"We stand for free speech" AKA child porn pays our mortgage.

Does it? Clearly not directly given the poor popularity of such reddits, so I guess it must be predicated on beliefs about a wider backlash. Valve is an interesting comparison.

(Thought the point regarding Usenet was interesting. Anyone can start their own newsgroup, but a lot of people could put paid to them. Indeed ISPs have dropped their Usenet servers entirely because of sexual abuse imagery. They could of course go further, although SSL limits their power these days.)

I still think it's ridiculous to farm these decisions out to individual private companies and their market incentives.

[Icehaven]

What I never get about people complaining when they feel their freedom of speech has been limited on social media is how they seem to think these platforms are public services or something that have some kind of duty or obligation to their users. They don't, they're private businesses, they're run as such, and can remove whatever they like. However many billions of users they have and how huge their reach is is irrelevant to this basic fact. You wouldn't be too surprised if you went into a Costa Coffee and started handing out pro-Nazi leaflets or pictures of dead people and were asked to stop it or leave, would you?
I mostly share jokes and pics about cats on fb, but if Mark Zuckerberg woke up tomorrow and thought "Nah, I'm really more of a dog person" and deleted every cat page on there facebook would crumble in a day there's nothing I or anyone else can do about it, except go and start our own social media site. And when it's material that's either sailing close to or steaming into breaching the law then even more so. It's like in the earlier days of fb when basic functions were altered or when the timeline was introduced, and people actually started petitions and boycotted it demanding the changes were removed, as if they had some kind of 'right' over how it worked. I think the vast reach the bigger sites have has exacerbated this and given a real sense of being 'silenced' to those who have had material removed or accounts deleted etc., but it's irrelevant, tthey don't owe anyone a voice or a platform, and if they take your shit down then tough titties.
Of course not taking things down is a whole other kettle of fish and another point entirely.

[Moribunderast]

Some excellent swears : https://twitter.com/hpstorian/status/1106841718324756482

This and the egging have brought me weird satisfaction today. I think it's the pure dumb Aussie-ness of both. I'm half-expecting the next step be for Anning to sit on a toilet with a black seat only to find it's been smeared with Vegemite - then some prankster jumps out and shouts "Get a dog up ya!" I like the idea of the "Let's keep Australia white!" guy being foiled time and again in very puerile Australian ways. Much better than a simple punch to the head.

[Zetetic]

You wouldn't be too surprised if you went into a Costa Coffee and started handing out pro-Nazi leaflets or pictures of dead people and were asked to stop it or leave, would you?

Or if you were a cleaner at some offices in Canary Wharf and wanted to protest your terrible pay and conditions in the square outside those offices - all private property, case closed. (To take the extreme but real example.)

The reach of these platforms is relevant because it makes them akin to public spaces or communication networks. We wouldn't be discussing them in the same way if this wasn't the case. (Whatever we think of 8chan and what should be done with it or how Neil should moderate CaB, we aren't considering these in the same way as reddit, Facebook or Twitter.)

That's not to argue that we should demand that these platforms must tolerate everything, but that what we tolerate and don't should be up to us to discuss and decide as a society.

[Zetetic]

The private spaces argument would seem to also cut the other way - that we shouldn't get worked up about snuff videos on the self proclaimed "front page of the internet" because of the financial details of some magic rocks.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It seems like life is going to get worse for Muslims before it gets better. Grim, almost a question of minimisation rather than prevention because the wheels seem to be in motion. Which is obviously fucking grim.

[biggytitbo]

I think the media get so upset when one of their outlets interviews Tommy Robinson or similar figure because they don't like what they see in the mirror. The idea he's some extreme outlier who they can conviently blame (and who can act as a vector for censorship) when something like this happens is terrifically self serving of them, allows them to dodge their own responsibility. Someone like Rod liddle is as bad as Robinson and he's given endless airtime and newspaper column inches in respectable mainstream outlet s, who will then handwring about the far right.

[Crisps?]

Does it? Clearly not directly given the poor popularity of such reddits.

A forum for images of underage children being voted "subreddit of the year", "Best of Reddit" and "second most common search term" on reddit isn't my idea of poor popularity.

(Thought the point regarding Usenet was interesting. Anyone can start their own newsgroup, but a lot of people could put paid to them. Indeed ISPs have dropped their Usenet servers entirely because of sexual abuse imagery. They could of course go further, although SSL limits their power these days.)

Usenet was dropped by ISPs because of the worst crime anyone can commit: copyright violation. With fewer people using newsgroups for discussion and almost entirely using them for sharing terabytes of warez, Usenet simply became an unprofitable legal and administrative hassle for ISPs.

I still think it's ridiculous to farm these decisions out to individual private companies and their market incentives.

The solution to private companies that are too big or that allow or promote hate or violence is for people to simply stop using them. It's not by essentially giving their transient dominance some kind of permanence or official endorsement by extending laws that apply to the state to them (if this is what you're saying) just because they're this week's Myspace or Geocities.

[Zetetic]

No, to be clear - I would extend laws that currently apply to communication networks and, in line with Liberty's view on physical privately-owned public spaces for example, producing a regulation specific to the actual problem. (I wouldn't treat them like part of the state.)

Usenet was dropped by ISPs because of the worst crime anyone can commit: copyright violation.

That probably helped clinch the issue, although hosting copyright violations tends not to produce quite the same 'legal hassle' as hosting imagery of the sexual abuse of children. (Which brings us back to existing regulation of communication networks.)

...isn't my idea of poor popularity.

Point taken - that is depressing.

The solution to private companies that are too big or that allow or promote hate or violence is for people to simply stop using them.

I'd be inclined to agree, regarding my own choices. But I don't think that this actually works very well in practice.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Does it? Clearly not directly given the poor popularity of such reddits, so I guess it must be predicated on beliefs about a wider backlash. Valve is an interesting comparison.

(Thought the point regarding Usenet was interesting. Anyone can start their own newsgroup, but a lot of people could put paid to them. Indeed ISPs have dropped their Usenet servers entirely because of sexual abuse imagery. They could of course go further, although SSL limits their power these days.)

I still think it's ridiculous to farm these decisions out to individual private companies and their market incentives.

Yeah I've always thought reddit is basically like usenet with a more accessible interface. The accessibility might make it worse as the trickiness for usenet probably did screen out actual idiots some of the time. There are definite parallels and when I see people talking about reddit like it's a homogenous group I tend to get the impression the person talking about it doesn't really understand what it is.

The reason usenet was a hive for warez and worse is because the systems are so old it's easy to remain anonymous on them - the systems themselves trust the author is who they say they are.

[bgmnts]

Have Mumsnet acheived consensus on this issue yet?