Author Topic: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit  (Read 2087 times)

Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« on: March 15, 2019, 09:20:43 PM »
https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/130569f5-3930-4d0c-84ea-ac6c5963f827?fbclid=IwAR3TPmZE-J498E74kGmu7jC5F540zJl4HqzwFwdgA7XL5bgP-dsSUzz5lbE

A few months ago I listened to this edition of The Ezra Klein Show, an interview with the author Michael Pollan in which he discussed his latest book.  I listen to most of Ezra Klein's interviews, so I wasn't seeking this one out in particular.

I found it a fascinating, revelatory listen.  The book is How to Change Your Mind: The New Science of Psychedelics and in it Pollan looks at the growing research into how psychedelic substances can be of real benefit to people with certain mental conditions, such as depression, OCD and addiction - basically, any illness that has at its root the mind endlessly cycling through the same way of thinking, grinding out a deep mental rut, and seeing no way out.  The psychedelic adds a soupcon of disorder, a measure of chaos and randomness that can, theoretically, produce strongly positive results.

I've been interested in trying psychedelics for some time, but not knowing anything about them, and not trusting people who say that they do, meant I didn't know where to begin.  Also there is all the crap that surrounds them, the posturing and self-regard, not to mention all the legal issues.  A large section of the book is about the history of psychedelics, and having read it it's hard to conclude anything other than that Timothy Leary et al, with their egos and recklessness, their delight in scaring the 'straights', held back scientific research by decades.

Pollan mentioned Robin Carhart-Harris's work several times in the interview and I found out that he is running several research projects in Imperial College London.  This sounded ideal - if I'm to have a mid-life crisis I want it to be under laboratory conditions - and I applied to participate.  However, it seems they only want people with existing conditions.  But they also are also running projects in which people who take part in psychedelic ceremonies or retreats complete surveys before and up to a year after the event, and I have managed to bag a place on one such retreat in Holland.  The retreat has far more of hello-trees hello-sky vibe than would be the case in an academic's lab, but I'm happy to put up with that to give this a try.

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 09:47:12 PM »
Here's Carhart-Harris's paper, The Entropic Brain, referred to in the interview.  It's very technical but still comprehensible to a layman. 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00020/full

I take a certain species-specific pride in the fact that the human brain seems to defy the Second Law of Thermodynamics, in that its entropy actually decreases over time!

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 10:34:29 PM »
I've been interested in trying psychedelics for some time, but not knowing anything about them, and not trusting people who say that they do, meant I didn't know where to begin.  Also there is all the crap that surrounds them, the posturing and self-regard, not to mention all the legal issues.  A large section of the book is about the history of psychedelics, and having read it it's hard to conclude anything other than that Timothy Leary et al, with their egos and recklessness, their delight in scaring the 'straights', held back scientific research by decades.

Pollan mentioned Robin Carhart-Harris's work several times in the interview and I found out that he is running several research projects in Imperial College London.  This sounded ideal - if I'm to have a mid-life crisis I want it to be under laboratory conditions - and I applied to participate.  However, it seems they only want people with existing conditions.  But they also are also running projects in which people who take part in psychedelic ceremonies or retreats complete surveys before and up to a year after the event, and I have managed to bag a place on one such retreat in Holland.  The retreat has far more of hello-trees hello-sky vibe than would be the case in an academic's lab, but I'm happy to put up with that to give this a try.

Hello! I am two sheets so will probably return to this with a scientific hat on (or even just glasses) at a later date. It is a good topic that I was surprised to see. :)

I think you've stumbled across an area that is incredibly helpful but niche, and I commend your interest. That could well be illustrative when it comes to appreciating such things as, well, I think the whole point becomes practical neuroscience, but you've taken quite an interesting decision here.

Congrats on the retreat. I fully believe it will do you good. There is a growing body of evidence about such chemicals and their effect on the mind. That's the part I might revisit myself as I want to approach it with sanctity. You basically shadowed this yourself but it is best presented clinically. Emphasis on the science, yknow?

I totally agree that the gross 60s hangover culture of psychedelics is abolutely disgusting and totally unhelpful; I absolutely fucking rue it; what I'd give for a culture that saw it in terms of CBT. Still, it is coming to light.

I'm not sure aboot the "midlife crisis" line - joke or not? - but mostly what spurred your interest? I don't expect you to answer on a really personal level if it's uncomfortable, so freely ignore; so I won't ask, but will say, I'd consider this myself if I suffered something quite debilitating. I get the attitude of.. major change from the part I've quoted.

So it feels natural to ask why.

What are you hoping to get from this? What interests you about psychedelics? I'm also interested in this retreat - link pls! - is this microdose amounts or what? Your line about preferring a laboratory is interesting!


Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 10:39:53 PM »
'mindfulness' is basically 'hippy shit' that works, but for cunts that use phrases like 'time is money' innit.

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 10:41:20 PM »
'mindfulness' is basically 'hippy shit' that works, but for cunts that use phrases like 'time is money' innit.

Not wrong but. Why's that relevant Seb? You seeing something I'm not?

Other than the thread title sounding like a list thread!

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 12:02:44 AM »
Why am I doing it?  Well, there's the noble answer, that I want to help advance the science.  And that's true, I do!

But also there is simple curiosity.  It's something that has interested me lately - not so much when I was younger as I associated it entirely with the 60s.  I think it was Jonathan Haidt's book The Happiness Hypothesis that first made me think it might be a road worth travelling down.  But I had no idea how to set about finding it.   I hadn't heard the expression 'set and setting' at that point, but it was something I innately understood: I knew I wanted whatever it was I took to be of good quality, and I knew I didn't want to try such substances in a party context, or as a laugh.

(Actually having said that, there was an occasion, about 6 years ago, when I did just that.  A friend gave me what he assured me was magic mushroom tea.  It was cup of hot water with what looked like a clod of mud at the bottom.  I drank it, and all I felt was really daft for having let myself be persuaded to drink a cup of hot water with a clod of mud at the bottom.)

And there is also the hope that the experience might release an aspect of my psyche that will enable me to fulfill my potential to a greater extent that I do now.  That mid-life crisis line is a quip, of course, but many a true word, etc.  I tend to be quite nervous about trying anything new, to lack confidence in my own abilities and efforts (while at the same time having the sense that my potential is absolutely fucking limitless) and also to have an innate conservatism that inhibits me from going down unexplored routes.  I am hoping that the soupcon of disorder, chaos, randomness or whatever might have real and long-lasting benefits for me. 

Here's the link to the organisation I have booked the retreat with: https://psychedelicsociety.org.uk/experience-retreats

gib

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 12:28:35 AM »
friends, trees, sky, water. Definitely not a lab.

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2019, 01:09:06 AM »
Precursor: this trial uses psilocybin (truffles), not acid, but there's way more data on the latter and not much - anything? - to suggest the former is anything different

Why am I doing it?  Well, there's the noble answer, that I want to help advance the science.  And that's true, I do!

But also there is simple curiosity.  It's something that has interested me lately - not so much when I was younger as I associated it entirely with the 60s.

I admire your answer. Mainly because I can believe it. Not fully - you have a stake in this; but I'm not qualified to suggest that stake is anything more than, as you say, curiosity...!

I would dearly love to move this thread away from the sad 60s shit - it really isn't part of even the modern drug scene; I'm open enough about my involvement in that, but I will be careful about juxtaposing it with my mental health background; I do believe as you seem to suggest it is time to bury the hoodoo and superstition when we could be talking about neuroscience, behavioural therapy and just plain advancement of nascent sciences - of which psychology is notable, being always in flux - reflecting its metier.

Quote
I think it was Jonathan Haidt's book The Happiness Hypothesis that first made me think it might be a road worth travelling down.  But I had no idea how to set about finding it.   I hadn't heard the expression 'set and setting' at that point, but it was something I innately understood: I knew I wanted whatever it was I took to be of good quality, and I knew I didn't want to try such substances in a party context, or as a laugh.

You know, if you told me "I got a great understanding of set and setting" I'd probably have guessed that book? Haha.

But isn't it really... natural? I don't get why it's a "drug thing" to talk about approach; environment and your mind; reaction; mood, I'd even go so far as to call some things psychological interference (not being heavy here - adverts, say.)

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(Actually having said that, there was an occasion, about 6 years ago, when I did just that.  A friend gave me what he assured me was magic mushroom tea.  It was cup of hot water with what looked like a clod of mud at the bottom.  I drank it, and all I felt was really daft for having let myself be persuaded to drink a cup of hot water with a clod of mud at the bottom.)

Yir mate's a tosser ;) Nah, seriously, you've described a little lesson for yourself perhaps? Can you still tap into the sense of sensation? Sort of rhetorical; just interested you aren't coming at this from a drug angle yet seem au fait with set and setting (though again I push it's natural and shapes so much, just under less extreme mindsets)

Quote
And there is also the hope that the experience might release an aspect of my psyche that will enable me to fulfill my potential to a greater extent that I do now.  That mid-life crisis line is a quip, of course, but many a true word, etc.

Anybody who seriously tries to talk you out of this attitude is a fool. That goes double for you!  I won't package you - you're a human being; answering nosy questions; I respect your honesty, and my instinct is telling me what you're describing is life. (Conversely, I highlighted "Mid life crisis" the same way I'd highlight fear of death - it is a lesser version; merely implies a very deep desire for life)

Quote
I tend to be quite nervous about trying anything new, to lack confidence in my own abilities and efforts (while at the same time having the sense that my potential is absolutely fucking limitless) and also to have an innate conservatism that inhibits me from going down unexplored routes.  I am hoping that the soupcon of disorder, chaos, randomness or whatever might have real and long-lasting benefits for me. 

Here's the link to the organisation I have booked the retreat with: https://psychedelicsociety.org.uk/experience-retreats

Thank you for the honesty. Rather than repeat your words back at you I'm happy you're going into this with a sound mind; have some links that have coloured my own optimism, also for you lurkers
https://healthtalk.unchealthcare.org/this-is-lsd-attached-to-a-brain-cell-serotonin-receptor/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293164/ (Serotonin on general mental heath)
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/sep/01/it-lifted-me-out-of-depression-is-microdosing-good-for-your-mind
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120308224524.htm (LSD and alcoholism)
http://www.brainblogger.com/2016/05/23/how-lsd-changes-the-way-our-brains-work/

Sorry if I'm going off the deep end here but LSD use amongst other things stimulates serotonin production; your limbic system - modulated by serotonin - is what I'd call yer main fucking factors in life mate: emotion, memories, mood.

I don't think this means much without an understanding of what areas are what - forgive me for stopping short of sourcing everything twice - but I'm still pissed so what the fuck:
(from the Beckley Foundation)

If you have the means I'd recommend reading this book, it is very much in the same vein as the one you linked to but sans drugs at all:
Buddha's Brain - The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love, and Wisdom

You could do worse than to read it - it's one of those "changed my life mate" books as fuck me, it's when I first linked my employment background up to the idea I could train myself - and link up what acid does to your brain - I am not especially mystic; I like to see things debunked; neuroscience is my higher priority here; that book gave me a brilliant understanding of my own behavior.

I hope you find some resonance in what I'm willing to point at and what you have found; given your own words - chaos and the random; you're on the money. And, not to be too Zen aboot it, you don't know light if you don't know dark, and you've outright said you're of order - I'm ending this post pleased, because I think you're looking at real tangible benefits here.

Not my place to promise owt, but notice I am not talking you out of it?

So I commend you. For being brave. For realisation and being ahead of the curve. Sir, I know more cowardly people than you. You're dreaming here; but you're not asleep with this decision; and I fully reckon you're about to kick those dreams into a tangibly useful sphere.

I'm not worried aboot you. Trust me - I'd tell you if I was.

TLDR: Go to Holland and take acid. Fuck, why do all my advice posts end like that...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 01:26:14 AM by ToneLa »

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2019, 01:10:25 AM »
friends, trees, sky, water. Definitely not a lab.

Haha. Well yeah. I lampshaded that but, spoilers, plus, I reckon you're sound mate - course you see that; the more I speak to you, more I like you.

Just gave it a fair whack withoot just outright saying "LSD is good for you". Spelt it out but.

Good slice of my night, this. I've done good.

ToneLa

  • Kill your masters
Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2019, 01:47:05 AM »


Putting my own money where my mouth is. Rambled aboot my prior experience but framing it around having suffered a few family deaths a few years ago which did drag me down; but being balanced enough to come through it unaided and yet find such substances (Wholecelium.com ship the very same truffles here) genuinely help.

Ta OP. Maybe we will be experience buddies! And with that you crash oot ;)

Lost Oliver

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2019, 08:22:52 AM »
Just commenting so I remember to read this later.

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2019, 09:33:54 AM »
I've tried quite a few things. I would say they can definitely bring about positive results but that they're certainly no panacea. It's also worth taking into account that dependant on your own inherent psychology they can also seriously fuck your shit up.

My only real advice would be to start small and work your way up, dip your toes in, see how your body and mind react to the substances and if you feel you want more intense experiences then start to ramp it up.

It's possibly to have the most beautiful, profound and even mystical experiences on psychedelics. It's also possible to send your "self" into some pretty scary places.

Set and setting is common sense really, as someone above said a lab for me wouldn't really be the ideal situation but if you feel more comfortable doing it there then go for it ay.

I'm rambling a bit now but for me one of the most rewarding aspects of pouring funny chemicals into my brain pipes was the relief of coming back down to baseline, an appreciation of everyday human consciousness, the ability to make a cup of tea or take a piss without questioning the very nature of your existence or what a cup of tea even is etc.

At the same time when you're being brain fucked in the nether realms by morphing fractal crystalline dmt insecto-snakes as your whole being vibrates that can be quite something too.

If you are feeling the calling to try these things I would proceed, but with a bit of caution. Some psychedelic experiences are intense as all fuck mate. Don't know the details but that retreat thing could well be a good introduction.

And to echo gib up there, trees and sky and friends are all good things as well. Now that I think about it so are comfy sofas and warm rooms. Each experience is different.


Long rambly post soz.

LOVE & LIGHT BROTHER! ;)

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2019, 09:53:46 AM »
(Wholecelium.com ship the very same truffles here)

How does this work?

Does it work?

If it did get intercepted could you get in trouble?

NoSleep

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2019, 10:36:19 AM »
Magic mushrooms are a class A drug, thanks to New Labour, so yes, you would get into trouble if anyone was arsed, but I don't think anyone is on this matter.

Legally you can acquire the spores of magic mushrooms (for "research") and use these in a mushroom growing kit to grow your own. But possession of the actual mushrooms are illegal.

ToneLa

  • Kill your masters
Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2019, 11:17:50 AM »
How does this work?

Does it work?

If it did get intercepted could you get in trouble?

How does it work? Vacuum packing and boring packages
Does it work? Oh yes, totally
Would you get in trouble?

Absofuckinlutely, class As we're talking aboot pal, I should have labelled that with a wee legal disclaimer. I'm no payin yir bail

NoSleep has it bang on, thank you my considerate amigo

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2019, 02:19:40 PM »
I am mercifully free of major mental maladies. I do have a dreadful attention span, though. I've read a couple of anecdotal type things which suggest microdosing LSD can help with one's focus.

I tried some not yet illegal alternative version of ketamine once a few years ago. I can only remember what seems to be about under a minute from that entire night: My hand appearing all jerky, like stop motion animation; Coming to in another room and having to consciously tell my feet to move in order to get back to the living room. It uncoupled my mind from my perception, so I could fully appreciate how weird the experience was. It's quite comforting as it meant I still had my wits about me and wouldn't consider jumping off the roof or anything like that.

Speaking of Ketamine, I watched a thing just last night which said it's been tentatively approved as a treatment for depression in America.

pancreas

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2019, 02:33:35 PM »
I've had to come to accept that psychedelics are a Bad Thing for me in anything like serious dosages. As soon as I notice the time-dilation, I try to monitor it, find it all flinging out of control and my mind bent into knots in the meantime. I'm then stuck in a loop in which everything is the same, and similarity is difference, and the whole thing just rolls around and around for ever in tedious fractal-like complexity, all amplified by my unwillingly doing maths on it.

e.g. \Lim_{x\to \infty} 1/x=0 is the source of much horror.

thenoise

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2019, 03:52:02 PM »
Other than the thread title sounding like a list thread!

Tie-dying my tie black, and wearing it to a business conference.

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2019, 04:25:10 PM »


Speaking of Ketamine, I watched a thing just last night which said it's been tentatively approved as a treatment for depression in America.

I follow these trials, I think it really has potential! It's taken us way too long to get around to it. Stupid war on drugs.

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2019, 05:41:31 PM »
Not wrong but. Why's that relevant Seb? You seeing something I'm not?

Other than the thread title sounding like a list thread!

I was half cut and couldn't be arsed reading the thread properly.


Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2019, 09:07:30 PM »


Putting my own money where my mouth is. Rambled aboot my prior experience but framing it around having suffered a few family deaths a few years ago which did drag me down; but being balanced enough to come through it unaided and yet find such substances (Wholecelium.com ship the very same truffles here) genuinely help.

Ta OP. Maybe we will be experience buddies! And with that you crash oot ;)

Good luck with this!

I see they've amended their original promise of replying in a fortnight.  In the end it was close to two months before they approved my application.

hermitical

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2019, 10:22:09 AM »
I went to the Breaking Convention conference in Greenwich a few years back, some great talks about this sort of thing. Plenty of proper scientific research etc.

Later that year I went on a 3 day ayahuasca thing in East Anglia. This was all because I'd been on A/D for nigh on a decade with very little to show (bar still being around), therapy etc didn't help - felt like a 'reset' might help. I also contacted Robin Carhart-Harris about the psilocybin project, he emailed back but I never followed it up.

Just to be clear, I am pretty vanilla when it comes to anything other than prescription drugs. The most experience is a couple of tokes and at one point during a particularly bad phase I got some weed from Canada to try and help me sleep (ingested) - it came from Canada because I am so straight that I had no idea how else to get hold of it - even though I was working at a university! Other than that nothing - and then the ayahuasca.

There are some legal LSD-esque analogues and I got an email the other day that they are now doing pre-prepared microdoses.

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2019, 11:44:57 AM »
And how was your ayahuasca experience? Out of curiosity. Do you feel it's helped you at all?

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 11:48:30 AM »
There are some legal LSD-esque analogues and I got an email the other day that they are now doing pre-prepared microdoses.

I'm quite interested in the idea of (legal) microdosing. I've no desire to trip balls but am intrigued by the reported benefits of just having a smidgeon. Do you have any other info?

There was a post on here a while back from someone who was growing all sorts of stuff himself.

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2019, 11:58:23 AM »
Tags: Microdosing in bulk

hermitical

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2019, 12:01:41 PM »
And how was your ayahuasca experience? Out of curiosity. Do you feel it's helped you at all?

There was a few weeks of feeling great and then things went back to normal. As for the experience itself, it was terrifying. Three nights, three ceremonies and it wasn't until the tail-end of the last that I made some sort of positive breakthrough. It wasn't all 'mother goddess' and 'loving plant consciousness' or whatever for me. I was petrified. But as I said, I had no frame of reference, never done anything like it - so I expect my anxieties played into things.

I'm quite interested in the idea of (legal) microdosing. I've no desire to trip balls but am intrigued by the reported benefits of just having a smidgeon. Do you have any other info?

There was a post on here a while back from someone who was growing all sorts of stuff himself.

The UK company is Lizard Labs, they've licenced their stuff to this Dutch company to sell the microdose product

https://micro1p.com/

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2019, 12:12:54 PM »
What was the east anglia thing? Had no idea you could do that in this country.. Was there any scientific testing element to legitamise it? I'd like to try that one day, but rather than be totally terrified, build up my experience before hand to get a rough idea of what to expect.

Is it something you think you would do again one day?

Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2019, 12:24:21 PM »
It it involves a ceremony, then it's definitely hippy bullshit.

ToneLa

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Re: Hippy bullshit, without all the hippy bullshit
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2019, 01:03:50 PM »
It it involves a ceremony, then it's definitely hippy bullshit.

Aye ceremonies can do one.

Robes though, indispensable.