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March 28, 2024, 11:24:25 PM

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Corbyn 23: Hail Discorbia

Started by Blue Jam, March 18, 2019, 04:03:30 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

KennyMonster

Quote from: gib on May 17, 2019, 11:02:44 PM
With no GE the parliamentary arithmetic doesn't change so how would May's successor do this?

Because all Tory MPs would rather fuck the country with no deal brexit than have a left wing government.

KennyMonster

Anyway, I hope my pessimism is unjustified, Labour have come out with some great policy proposals this week, trialling a universal basic income, solar panels on all social housing.......




jamiefairlie

Quote from: gib on May 17, 2019, 11:09:17 PM
If it came to that then the EU would dangle a further extension and there'd be a motion to accept it which the majority of the house would vote for.

Ok, so it goes on forever? What is this magic deal that will be acceptable to the EU, Parliament and the UK public?

gib

Quote from: jamiefairlie on May 17, 2019, 11:59:16 PM
Ok, so it goes on forever? What is this magic deal that will be acceptable to the EU, Parliament and the UK public?

There's no solution that does that so it goes on forever, convince me otherwise.

jamiefairlie

Quote from: gib on May 18, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
There's no solution that does that so it goes on forever, convince me otherwise.

Hard Brexit supporters will eventually gain the upper hand and some form of Johnson led Tory party unholy coalition will engineer a no deal outcome. It's the only possible endgame, might take a while though.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Guardian headline: Labour panics. Story.... Labour doesn't panic

Let's face it, The Guardian want to see Labour hurt big time in this election to force it towards Remain, the position it is slowly working towards anyway.

greencalx

Yeah it's so blatant isn't it. They tried earlier to whip up a 'crisis' regarding the wording of the EU campaign pamphlets, and now this. Rawnsley's piece today on the breakdown of the talks doesn't contain any information I didn't already know - so overall I think they know as much as we do about what's really going on.

I suppose this is what we get for them not throwing their weight behind TINGE. Though given that LDs are on the up again, it wouldn't surprise me if the paper swung back behind them.

idunnosomename

I just wish they'd stop this RUDDY BREXIT!

*bounces up and down on a trampoline in a comedy top hat emblazoned "bollocks to brexit" *

greencalx

Personally, I now think the time is right for Labour to shift to a more overly pro-European stance, which in practice probably means supporting a 2nd ref no matter whether it's a "damaging Tory Brexit" or a nice cuddly "jobs-first Labour Brexit". Whether it makes sense to do that before Thursday I don't know. I doubt any defectors to the LDs (or TINGE) would flock back on the basis of this alone, and the narrative would just shift back to "rubbish beardy Corbyn and his dangerous ideas".

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: greencalx on May 19, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Personally, I now think the time is right for Labour to shift to a more overly pro-European stance, which in practice probably means supporting a 2nd ref no matter whether it's a "damaging Tory Brexit" or a nice cuddly "jobs-first Labour Brexit". Whether it makes sense to do that before Thursday I don't know. I doubt any defectors to the LDs (or TINGE) would flock back on the basis of this alone, and the narrative would just shift back to "rubbish beardy Corbyn and his dangerous ideas".

Why? It makes no tactical sense, most likely the next GE will see Labour as the biggest party in a coalition.  If outwardly remain parties can prop that up then it can  say a condition of that support is a 2nd ref.  If there isn't the support for remain then Labour has to deal with No Dealers, which it can do as it will have positioned itself as the centre ground. 

Lots of deals become available at this time.

Paul Calf

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 19, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Labour has to deal with No Dealers, which...


...will be the end of the party as a serious political force for at least a generation.

idunnosomename

wish the party would grow a pair and expel margaret hodge

or get her sectioned


Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: greencalx on May 19, 2019, 09:16:05 AM
Yeah it's so blatant isn't it. They tried earlier to whip up a 'crisis' regarding the wording of the EU campaign pamphlets, and now this. Rawnsley's piece today on the breakdown of the talks doesn't contain any information I didn't already know - so overall I think they know as much as we do about what's really going on.

I suppose this is what we get for them not throwing their weight behind TINGE. Though given that LDs are on the up again, it wouldn't surprise me if the paper swung back behind them.

Observer have today actively encouraged people to ignore Labour in their election editorial.

Showing their true colours

Absorb the anus burn


greencalx

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 19, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Why? It makes no tactical sense, most likely the next GE will see Labour as the biggest party in a coalition.  If outwardly remain parties can prop that up then it can  say a condition of that support is a 2nd ref.  If there isn't the support for remain then Labour has to deal with No Dealers, which it can do as it will have positioned itself as the centre ground. 

Lots of deals become available at this time.

Except they've already ruled out No Deal, and have also made it very clear that if there is going to be some sort of deal, than a Customs Union has to be involved. So I suppose they could stay with that position. Except, as I've been repeatedly told on here this is what nobody wants.

jobotic

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 19, 2019, 02:21:49 PM
wish the party would grow a pair and expel margaret hodge

or get her sectioned

Kate Hoey shares platforms with the far-right and she's still a Labour MP .

So much for this purge by the left.

idunnosomename

Quote from: jobotic on May 19, 2019, 04:58:13 PM
Kate Hoey shares platforms with the far-right and she's still a Labour MP .

So much for this purge by the left.
I don't think she's actually called for people to vote for another party though, which breaks party rules

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vote-for-a-pro-eu-party-not-mine-says-labours-dame-margaret-hodge-8jfjc5zlq

Edmonds

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on May 19, 2019, 02:59:24 PM
Observer have today actively encouraged people to ignore Labour in their election editorial.

Showing their true colours

How pathetically reductive of you.

The editorial goes on to posit an argument about how Corbyn's position has been hopelessly ambiguous on Brexit, contrary to the membership, and deserves the drubbing he'll get on Thursday.

QuoteThis Thursday, voters face an important choice. It's not the choice they deserve: whether to approve or reject the Brexit deal Theresa May has negotiated on their behalf. But it is the most important opportunity yet to send a clear message to our political leaders that the gridlock, the lacklustre leadership and the general sense of malaise that have infected Westminster since 2016 just isn't good enough.

For months, people have been denied their say, despite the prolonged parliamentary stalemate and the knots in which both main parties have tied themselves over Brexit. These European elections should not be treated as a proxy referendum: there is no distinct question being put to the public and turnout will probably be much lower than in a general election or referendum. But they are a precious chance for those who share the Observer's view that Brexit would be an unmitigated disaster to show Labour and the Conservatives exactly what they think of their takeaway from the dire local election results earlier this month – that, somehow, voters who defected to the Lib Dems and Greens were just telling politicians to get on with Brexit.

These EU elections should be about one question and one question alone: what happens next with Brexit? Voters face no dilemma about whether they should vote tactically for Labour to keep the Tories out of Westminster or their local council, or about whether a vote for one of the smaller parties is a vote wasted. The voting system is proportional, and these elections are anything but a straight-up fight between the two main parties. We urge voters to cast their ballot for one of the five parties explicitly in favour of a confirmatory referendum: the Lib Dems, the Greens, Change UK or, in Scotland and Wales, the SNP or Plaid Cymru.

There are those in the Labour party who maintain it is a Remain party. As much as they may wish this to be true, they are deluding themselves. Labour is a Brexit party, under a Eurosceptic leader who has unequivocally committed the party to trying to deliver Brexit.

The Observer has been consistently critical of May for absorbing the deceit of the Leave campaign; for never levelling with her MPs and the public that Brexit was going to involve painful trade-offs. Her strategy has been shaped only by her desperation to keep some semblance of unity in the Tory party, not by the national interest.

But from the opposition benches, Labour has been little better. Jeremy Corbyn has fallaciously maintained that if only he were leading the negotiations, he could somehow get a deal that secured all the benefits of membership without any of the costs. Both main parties treated a victory for Leave as a victory for Farage-style populism: just keep up the illusion that Brexit done right could be smooth and pain-free. And so both have aided and abetted the rise of the Brexit party: is it any wonder that some voters are asking: if Brexit really is so simple and downside-free, why hasn't it yet happened?

Corbyn was elected Labour leader partly on a platform of rejuvenating party democracy. But only, it would seem, when it suits him. According to the party's deputy leader, an overwhelming majority of MPs back a referendum on any Brexit deal and more than seven in 10 party members want to see Labour back a referendum. But Corbyn is ignoring all that, hoping that merely incorporating a potential referendum into party policy as a third preference, after a Labour Brexit deal that doesn't exist and a general election Labour doesn't have the votes to deliver, will be enough of a sop to Labour's Remain voters to prevent them deserting in droves.

It's not just insulting – it's foolish. Labour should swing behind a referendum first because, as the Observer has long argued, it is the right thing to do: voters were not offered a firm proposition for how we should leave the EU in 2016; instead, the Leave campaigns sketched out a fantasy Brexit that would involve Britain seizing back control, freeing up vast pots of cash for hospitals and schools, all while delivering a big boost to the economy. Now a concrete deal exists – that commits to a treaty the trade-offs Brexit must involve – it must be put to voters.

But it is also the sensible thing for Labour to do electorally. Its ambiguity over Brexit is no longer chiming with voters. Polls suggest that the majority of Labour's 2017 voters are planning to defect to other parties on Thursday and that three times as many are Remainers deserting Labour for Remain parties than Leavers for Leave parties. They are right to defect. Corbyn seems determined to interpret a vote for Labour as a positive vote for his Brexit policy. Voting Labour will simply engender more complacency that anti-Brexit voters can be taken for granted despite making up the majority of the party's supporters. A referendum is unlikely to happen unless Labour's leadership actively back one. But for months, Corbyn has ignored the principled and pragmatic arguments for Labour to do so. The only viable way to get him to reconsider is to deny him your vote on Thursday.

There are several options. The Observer could not endorse every Green policy but enthusiastically backs their message about the urgency of the climate crisis. In coalition with David Cameron, the Lib Dems enabled five years of punitive and inequitable public spending cuts, but polling suggests they are the strongest national anti-Brexit party, with the best chance of catching up to Labour. While many are justifiably disappointed in Change UK's overly tribal political tactics, their MPs undoubtedly did a brave thing in rejecting their former parties over their Brexit handling. And though the Observer is no supporter of Scottish or Welsh independence, the SNP and Plaid Cymru have consistently been strong anti-Brexit advocates for Scotland and Wales.

Brexit is the most important question facing the UK for decades and at last voters have an opportunity, albeit imperfect, to deliver a verdict. Labour has backed its anti-Brexit voters into a corner. We urge them not to vote Labour on Thursday, but to use their ballot to make clear to Corbyn that if he does anything to facilitate Brexit in the coming months, it won't be in their name.

Replies From View

Quote from: Edmonds on May 19, 2019, 05:34:03 PM
How pathetically reductive of you.

The editorial goes on to posit a position about how Corbyn's position has been hopelessly ambiguous on Brexit, contrary to the membership, and deserves the drubbing he'll get on Thursday.

Which is untrue and wilfully obtuse, isn't it.  Hence Shoulders saying (in the post you even quoted):

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on May 19, 2019, 02:59:24 PM
Observer have today actively encouraged people to ignore Labour in their election editorial.

Showing their true colours

olliebean

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 19, 2019, 05:29:58 PM
I don't think she's actually called for people to vote for another party though, which breaks party rules

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vote-for-a-pro-eu-party-not-mine-says-labours-dame-margaret-hodge-8jfjc5zlq

No, you haven't understood at all, it only breaks party rules if you're likely to vote for Corbyn in an imminent leadership election.

jobotic

Don't care what rules she's broken. She moons after fascists and addressed a crowd featuring Generation Identity flags. They may have wondered over from the Ukip rally but she didn't tell them to fuck off.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: greencalx on May 19, 2019, 03:41:00 PM
Except they've already ruled out No Deal, and have also made it very clear that if there is going to be some sort of deal, than a Customs Union has to be involved. So I suppose they could stay with that position. Except, as I've been repeatedly told on here this is what nobody wants.

The Brexit Party have not ruled out No Deal. 

Btw sorry I meant lots of deals outside of Brexit become possible with minority Labour government.

greencalx

The Labour Party have. That's who I was talking about.

I do feel we're reaching the point of diminishing returns with the tightrope position.

Buelligan

That's the problem with thongs, isn't it?

gib

Someone saying things on Radio 4 just now described how terrifying it would be if Labour got in because they are now 'relatively far left'. I simultaneously feel like i just made that up and that it just happened.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: gib on May 19, 2019, 10:43:36 PM
Someone saying things on Radio 4 just now described how terrifying it would be if Labour got in because they are now 'relatively far left'. I simultaneously feel like i just made that up and that it just happened.

Those people are a threat to Britain. Mindless chumps who need a thorough bollocking

Buelligan

There'll be plenty of time to reeducate them in years 2-75.  I'll fetch my tools.


Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Edmonds on May 20, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
I am a Non entity

Great posting history so far by the way. Clever enough to post in a few other topics (albeit mainly to continue being a snide opaque piece of shit to people who don't know you or anything about you) but still basically hanging around the same politics threads while criticising others for doing the same. Main contribution being to defend someone who was clearly paid or incentivised to come here and remorselessly post right-wing propaganda under a Tommy Robinson pseudonym for 10 hours a day. What a source of pride that must be.

Let me *grab popcorn* and watch how *actually hilarious* it is when you fade into nothing like the rest of them.