Stoicism/Philosophy

[Flouncer]

I did a venting thread on here about a year ago when I was struggling, and a few people suggested that I should have a look at stoicism. I've just started looking into it, and I was wondering if anyone here has managed to apply it to their lives in a meaningful way. Only giving a shit about virtue really clicks with me (this is an inherent part of who I am; I'm a pretty black and white thinker in many respects) and it seems that freeing yourself from desire and the fear of pain is something we should all aspire to. I've watched a lecture about Marcus Aurelius and read the first bit of the Enchiridion of Epictetus. I'd welcome any recommendations for books or things to watch, particularly in relation to applying it to your life in a practical way. I've not really looked into philosophy before, beyond reading a bit of Camus when I was younger. Absurdism certainly appealed to me as well; I like his way of looking at life but I've always felt that I needed to look into the stuff Camus built upon to get a full understanding of it, and that's quite an undertaking.

Last night I also read about Diogenes, LEGEND GARY of the philosophers. His dad was a banker but they got thrown out of their city for debasing currency, so he moved to Athens and got into philosophy. He lived on the street in a big clay tub, and was known for wanking in public. If he needed a shit while he was at the theatre he'd just fucking do it and he pissed on people who insulted him. He once called Alexander the Great a cunt to his face. Absolute mad lad!

[Chollis]

He once called Alexander the Great a cunt to his face. Absolute mad lad!

What a naughty cunt!

[Buelligan]

I generally think having an honest dialogue with yourself helps.  That's to say, the thoughts of others are important, they can trigger ideas but immersing oneself in the opinions of another, following their philosophy, runs a bit close to religion for me.  Taking on someone else's take is a bit like trying to adopt their persona - acting.  And being free is not about wearing a mask.  I think that cunt who said ...this above all: to thine own self be true... knew a thing or two.  Start with your own perception.

[Dex Sawash]

not arsed, cigs

[Twit 2]

In the last thread I recommended you read Aurelius's Meditations and I am again. The Oxford Classics edition also has assorted bits of other stoics, like yer man Diogenes.

As for: does it work in practice? Short answer is yes, it's saved my life.

[Flouncer]

In the last thread I recommended you read Aurelius's Meditations and I am again. The Oxford Classics edition also has assorted bits of other stoics, like yer man Diogenes.

As for: does it work in practice? Short answer is yes, it's saved my life.

Thanks - I'll get that particular edition. I should have looked up that thread before I made this one really. I'm glad it's worked for you and I'm pretty certain there's something in it for me. I'm at a point in my life where I need to start taking more responsibility for myself and try to get a handle on my emotions in order to get out of the situation I'm in, and I believe this stuff can provide me with the tools to do that if I put sufficient effort into it.

I generally think having an honest dialogue with yourself helps.  That's to say, the thoughts of others are important, they can trigger ideas but immersing oneself in the opinions of another, following their philosophy, runs a bit close to religion for me.  Taking on someone else's take is a bit like trying to adopt their persona - acting.  And being free is not about wearing a mask.  I think that cunt who said ...this above all: to thine own self be true... knew a thing or two.  Start with your own perception.

I have the same sort of aversion to religiony groupthink stuff; I know what you're saying there, though a lot of what you've said sounds like stoicism - being honest with yourself and true to your own values. Just having personal integrity and behaving in the way which you believe to be moral and decent. This is why I like the sound of it so much; I've felt like that for a long time and admired people with those qualities, though I have often let myself down in many ways and ended up behaving in ways that don't fit in with my personal moral code, then making excuses for myself instead of addressing it. As you say, sometimes taking in the thoughts of others can trigger ideas, and I think that's what I need to break out of the stagnation I find myself in.

[Soup Dogg]

Absurdism certainly appealed to me as well; I like his way of looking at life but I've always felt that I needed to look into the stuff Camus built upon to get a full understanding of it, and that's quite an undertaking

.

If you wanna get to know the philosophical underpinnings of absurdism and existentialism a bit better, I'd recommend reading At the Existentialist Cafe by Sarah Bakewell. Looks at the main figureheads of phenomenology and existentialism, puts their writing in the context of their lives and intellectual milieu and generally makes me wanna visit 50s Paris.

[The Boston Crab]

Get some Taoism down you to be honest. Stoicism is all very human centric which is great and all very applicable and that but Taoism will place you in the whole universe.

[Twit 2]

sounds shit mate

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Get some Taoism down you to be honest. Stoicism is all very human centric which is great and all very applicable and that but Taoism will place you in the whole universe.

Knobrot on stilts, that

[José]

Get some Taoism down you to be honest. Stoicism is all very human centric which is great and all very applicable and that but Taoism will place you in the whole universe.

you'd have to be a pretty thick cunt to wander outside the universe.

[Twit 2]

Stoicism is all very human centric which is great

Nah mate, some of the basic tenets of stoicism outline precisely how we need to detach ourselves from our view of the world, as it bimbles about without us anyway.  Plus, a great deal of stoic theory was nicked off Buddhists, when Pyrrho went to India with Alexander the Great.

[Flouncer]

.

If you wanna get to know the philosophical underpinnings of absurdism and existentialism a bit better, I'd recommend reading At the Existentialist Cafe by Sarah Bakewell. Looks at the main figureheads of phenomenology and existentialism, puts their writing in the context of their lives and intellectual milieu and generally makes me wanna visit 50s Paris.

Sounds good. I'll grab that as well.

Nah mate, some of the basic tenets of stoicism outline precisely how we need to detach ourselves from our view of the world, as it bimbles about without us anyway.  Plus, a great deal of stoic theory was nicked off Buddhists, when Pyrrho went to India with Alexander the Great.

That makes a lot of sense - mindfulness seems to be an integral part of stoicism.

[RedRevolver]

Have you ever read the Principia Discordia? I think you might find that interesting.

[Nola Carveth]

Weirdly ... I've got two copies of that sat next to me but I can't read for any length of time due to needing my prescription changing, and I'm not in a position to buy the readers I need right now.
I spend all day looking at my laptop screen and my eyes sting like fuck for most of the time now.

[Twit 2]

Have you ever read the Principia Discordia? I think you might find that interesting.

I'd never heard of that, so just read up on it. It sounds very interesting, but just rephrased truisms, written in a kind of counter-cultural/occult lingo:

The Aneristic Principle is that of apparent order; the Eristic Principle is that of apparent disorder. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of pure chaos, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making.

With our concept-making apparatus called "the brain" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about-reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently.

It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T) True reality is a level deeper than is the level of concept. We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids. A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The order is in the grid. That is the Aneristic Principle.

Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be true. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the Aneristic Illusion. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

Disorder is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the Eristic Principle.

The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the Eristic Illusion. The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.

Now, presumably the author is having fun and apparently it is a humourous book, but the above contains nothing that philosophers and scientists haven't been saying for centuries. I suppose, if you were a stoned beach bum in the 70s it would get you to some realisations that you might not be able to afford if you enrolled on a traditional philosophy course.

[Sin Agog]

Always been more of a Diogenes type myself.  Not that I'd call myself a Cynic, more a fellow admirer of fine barrels.

ETA: Oh you mentioned him in the OP. Diogenes wasn't a stoic, you plum.

Look up this ancient Chinese dude called Mo-Tzu.  Most of his writing was burnt by jealous Confucians (a much more establishment-friendly thinker), but he really sounded like the Asian proto-Jesus!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi

[Twit 2]

Diogenes wasn't a stoic, you plum.

True, but a lot of the principles of cynicism and stoicism overlap, and the wisdom of Diogenes certainly comes under the remit of what the OP was after.

[Sin Agog]

Part of me wants to say that it seems alien to our multifaceted, diamond-like natures to plump for just one school of thought, but then one problem I have with a lot of philosophers is they take what works for them, with their own particular nature, and make out as if it's applicable to the entire world. It could be handy finding the right philosopher for you who's done most of the heavy lifting already.

If we're talking about the Greeks, Lucian of Samasota wrote a still fucking funny little satire 2k years ago on various philosophers being put up for sale in a slave auction. Well worth a read: http://www.philaletheians.co.uk/study-notes/hellenic-and-hellenistic-papers/lucian's-philosophers-for-sale-tr.-fowler-and-fowler.pdf

[Twit 2]

Part of me wants to say that it seems alien to our multifaceted, diamond-like natures to plump for just one school of thought, but then one problem I have with a lot of philosophers is they take what works for them, with their own particular nature, and make out as if it's applicable to the entire world. It could be handy finding the right philosopher for you who's done most of the heavy lifting already.

Absolutely agree with all of this. Freud and Nietzsche in particular strike me as being shockers for the bit in bold. A lot of Plato and Hegel's idealism is eccentric nonsense at best. I find most systematic philosophy of little value, and am much more attracted to the kind of poetic existential philosophy that simply communicates the force of feeling of being alive, without the need for systems and absolutes. But that's my nature, and as you say, I will find truth in others like that.

I'm also quite suspicious of the east/west divide and particularly the notion that Eastern philosophy is somehow better/purer because it's more exotic. The movement of people along trade routes and through warfare etc means ideas have always moved around. In addition, people are the same everywhere (as in, all Homo sapiens) so all insights are available to all people with the right context and environment. Essentially, 'there's nothing new under the sun'. It is fascinating to see how ideas are re-expressed throughout the ages, to spot the patterns and so on. But if you are always looking for the truth in the next thing, in the other thing, it'll continue to elude you.

[Nola Carveth]

Thank you all for the recommends <3

[Sin Agog]

I'm also quite suspicious of the east/west divide and particularly the notion that Eastern philosophy is somehow better/purer because it's more exotic. The movement of people along trade routes and through warfare etc means ideas have always moved around. In addition, people are the same everywhere (as in, all Homo sapiens) so all insights are available to all people with the right context and environment. Essentially, 'there's nothing new under the sun'. It is fascinating to see how ideas are re-expressed throughout the ages, to spot the patterns and so on. But if you are always looking for the truth in the next thing, in the other thing, it'll continue to elude you.

My problem is that history in Europe is still, to this day, taught following Herodotus' model, focusing exclusively on Western thought, with a few muddy allusions to them other cats.  This is probably why some New Age/faux-wordly types give Eastern philosophers a shimmering, otherwordly power, because they know so little about the actual people involved. Even this othering is still better than if you're one of the great Persian thinkers, who aren't so much Othered as disregarded altogether.  If there can be such vast discrepancies of thought even today, in a world with jet engines and the internet, it's fascinating to find out how isolation (as you say not total) affected different people's thinking in the past.   Not as much as I imagined has been my answer so far.  Sharp minds generally have a way of sounding extremely prescient and grounded, no matter where or when they stem from.   Still, we should never stop widening our nets when it comes to who we teach our children about.

(All of that said, I love those crazy Greeks and their various adventures bringing light into darkness).

[Twit 2]

Herotodus was a cunt.

[Sin Agog]

I read yesterday that archaeologists have just dug up an Egyptian boat that matches with his description (https://classicalwisdom.com/science/archeology/herodotus-proved-right-nile-shipwreck-vindicates-the-greek-historians-wild-claims-about-a-boat/).  If he was right about that, maybe there really are furry ants the size of foxes roaming wild in Iran?

[hillbillyholiday]

If he was right about that, maybe there really are furry ants the size of foxes roaming wild in Iran?

He was right about that, too. And far more discerning than Pliny and all the others who followed.

In this sandy desert are ants, not as big as dogs but bigger than foxes; the Persian king has some of these, which have been caught there. These ants live underground, digging out the sand in the same way as the ants in Greece, to which they are very similar in shape, and the sand which they carry from the holes is full of gold.

In the early 80s, ethnologist Michel Peissel met with Minaro villagers from the Dansar plain, a high plateau overlooking the Indus River between India and Pakistan.  The Minaro are an ancient tribe, so isolated that they preserve some stone-age customs.  Peissel witnessed the villagers collecting gold dust from piles of soil thrown up by the Himalayan marmot (Marmota himalayanus). 

Herodotus used the word murmex, Greek for "ant".  The Persians may have called the marmot mur mess ("big ant") because heaps around their burrows resemble anthills.  The Mahâbhârata also mentions this "ant-gold".


First post after 2,345 days of lurking... Marmot says knock you out!

[Sin Agog]

I wonder if Them! would have been improved if it'd been about nuclear embiggened marmots.

(Welcome back to the fold).

[hillbillyholiday]

Indubitably. 

And yes, Mozi's great.  But you can't beat a bit o' Buddha...

https://pasteboard.co/I7DIqyH.jpg

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

"In the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught.  It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling.  It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one."

[Sin Agog]

I should re-read The Dhammapada.  Last time I tried, I kept on smiling too much at Sid's habit of saying the same thing twice:- (Paraphrasing) '"He insulted me," those who say such things will never see with a clear eye.' Next aphorism: '"He did not insult me," those who say such things will always see with a clear eye.' I got that from your first statement!  He who drinks a glass of apple juice will have his thirst slaked.  He who does not drink a glass of apple juice will not have his thirst slaked.

You mentioned the Mahabharata- now that's a book!  Even if Krishna was a right little stirrer.

[hillbillyholiday]

Tony Green was zen as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tony_Green&oldid=889995198#Personal_life

A keen composer of koans, he once likened Bullseye to a meditation on karma, wherein the contestant "becomes six things at one time: the aimer, the aim, the thrower, the throw, the hitter and the hit."