Author Topic: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?  (Read 3592 times)

Sin Agog

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2019, 04:53:06 PM »
I'm with Eddie on thinking Dogma is probably his best film, not sure I would call it classic cinema but I think its mostly well made with some substance which makes the Jay/Bob stuff much easier to tolerate.

I remember my square French-Canadian priest uncle being assigned a pile of videos to write about for the church, and Dogma was among them.  I wish I'd found out what he thought about the giant shit-monster.  You can't write eschatology without the scat.

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2019, 05:02:40 PM »
It does feel like Kevin Smith's one purpose for existing was to relate showbiz anecdotes on the Evening with series. He seems like a natural storyteller.

Clerks and Chasing Amy - good stuff, good suburban mythology. Mallrats is a man not knowing what to do with millions of Weinstein dollars. Dogma is great, his skills as the ultimate suburban mythologiser again outweigh his very obvious inability to direct anything. Clerks II shows how lost he got in Hollywood. He's a clueless bum, yes, but he's certainly got a voice.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2019, 05:06:37 PM »
He's a clueless bum, yes, but he's certainly got a voice.

Well, quite.  I've said this before and I'll say it again; I'll take a thousand Kevin Smiths over a single Michael Bay, any day of the week.

DukeDeMondo

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2019, 05:50:13 PM »
I think Red State going Full Rapture would have been just as bad as the ending it ended up ending with.

It just needed the trumpets. That was it. That was all that was required.

"Holy fuck. Fucking trumpets, but. What the fuck is going on? Is this... Trumpets, for Christ sake? Like, the actual fucking trumpets, are these?"

Shot of folks' faces. Don't know what the hell's going on. Are they hearing them or not? Are they trumpeting or aren't they? What the fuck?

That's it. That ambiguity would have shook you up for days and elevated the thing to the ends of creation.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2019, 05:56:33 PM »
I think Red State going Full Rapture would have been just as bad as the ending it ended up ending with.

It just needed the trumpets. That was it. That was all that was required.

"Holy fuck. Fucking trumpets, but. What the fuck is going on? Is this... Trumpets, for Christ sake? Like, the actual fucking trumpets, are these?"

Shot of folks' faces. Don't know what the hell's going on. Are they hearing them or not? Are they trumpeting or aren't they? What the fuck?

That's it. That ambiguity would have shook you up for days and elevated the thing to the ends of creation.

Time will tell, I guess (that time being when I can be arsed to edit the film and upload it).

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2019, 06:17:55 PM »
I quite liked the sheer intolerance of the "fuck guys like this" speech at the end of Red State. And in terms of plot, Smith really showed he could move it.

Wasn't Weinstein uneasy about the film...and Miramax passed on it?

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2019, 06:36:07 PM »
Wasn't Weinstein uneasy about the film...and Miramax passed on it?

I'm not sure but I did run across this when looking into it...

Quote from: Kevin Smith on the screening of Clerks at the Sundance Festival
“I open the curtain at the back and I see Harvey outside, talking. He’s talking about the Jets. Loud as fuck. The opening of my movie, first seven minutes. Old Kev just would have gone, ‘Harvey, shh, movie’s on.’ But it disgusted me so much. It doesn’t get much more heartbreaking. So I fuckin’ lost it, and I went out and said, ‘Hey. Shut the fuck up!’ And he looked at me with fuckin’ hate in his eyes. And I said, ‘Yeah. That’s me and I’m saying it.’ And he just left.”

Kevin Smith’s production company which he used to film Red State was named 'The Harvey Boys'.  A subtle dig, perhaps?  Obviously Kevin Smith worked with the Weinstein's after that event at the Sundance Festival but perhaps their refusal to produce Red State was the straw that broke the camel's back.  On the the other hand, I could easily imagine Smith naming his production company 'The Harvey Boys' out of respect.

Speaking of respect, I will always respect Kevin Smith immensely for this...

Quote from: Rolling Stone
Kevin Smith‘s allegiance to Harvey Weinstein dissolved earlier this month amid reports that the now-disgraced movie mogul had sexually assaulted or harassed dozens of women in the industry over the years.

And on October 13th, the filmmaker decided to take action to show his solidarity for those who have suffered abuse  – at the hands of Weinstein or otherwise.

“My entire career is tied up with this man,” Smith said during his Hollywood Babble-On podcast. “It’s been a weird fucking week. I just wanted to make some fucking movies, that’s it. That’s why I came, that’s why I made Clerks.”

Smith pledged to donate the residuals from his Weinstein-backed films to the nonprofit Women in Film, which “advocates for and advances the careers for women working in the screen industries.”

“No fucking movie is worth all this. Like, my entire career, fuck it, take it,” he continued. “It’s wrapped up in something really fucking horrible. I’m not looking for sympathy. I know it’s not my fault, but I didn’t fucking help. I sat out there talking about this man like he was a hero, like he was my friend, like he was my father and shit like that.”

Smith’s working relationship with Weinstein dates back to 1994, with his first flick, cult favorite Clerks, and has continued through other hits such as Mall Rats, Dogma, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and Zack and Miri Make a Porno. According to Smith, Weinstein even approached the filmmaker in recent months about making a Dogma 2, but Smith turned down the offer.

Earlier this month, following the headline-making news of Weinstein’s many alleged indiscretions, Smith took to Twitter to denounce the producer’s actions and express shame for not knowing or doing better.

“He financed the first 14 years of my career,” he wrote on October 9th. “And now I know while I was profiting, others were in terrible pain. It makes me feel ashamed.”

Spiteface

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2019, 07:26:53 PM »
It does feel like Kevin Smith's one purpose for existing was to relate showbiz anecdotes on the Evening with series. He seems like a natural storyteller.
The fact at one time he was ready to quit making movies and making Podcasts his main thing probably suggests he knows where his strengths truly are. Then episode 259 of SModcast happened and he got the idea for Tusk.

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2019, 08:10:12 PM »
I still like Clerks, I still think Mallrats is his best film all around, I still like Dogma, I think I still might like Strike Back and Clerks ll but haven't seen either of them since they came out, Jersey Girl is fine once J-Lo is out of the picture (though largely only thanks to two strong turns from George Carlin and Liv Tyler), I was surprised that Zack and Miri was nowhere near as bad as it should have been and that Cop Out was even worse than I was expecting.  I found Red State to be very meh.  Yeah, very un-Smith like, but that doesn't automatically equate to being good.  I've not seen anything he's made since then.

Worst Smith film of all though, as I've mentioned numerous times in other threads, and to this day I find it incredible the amount of people who have any respect for it at all, let alone the fact that Criterion saw fit to include it in their collection, is Chasing Amy.  An absolutely abysmal pile of toilet which annoys me just by existing.  One of the worst films I've ever seen.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2019, 03:25:43 AM »
...Jersey Girl is fine once J-Lo is out of the picture...

It's been a while, but doesn't her character die within the first 10 minutes?

Worst Smith film of all though, as I've mentioned numerous times in other threads, and to this day I find it incredible the amount of people who have any respect for it at all, let alone the fact that Criterion saw fit to include it in their collection, is Chasing Amy.  An absolutely abysmal pile of toilet which annoys me just by existing.  One of the worst films I've ever seen.

I'm still sore that some bastard saw fit to steal my region 1 Criterion DVD of Chasing Amy whilst I was out and about.  I guess that I should have locked my room's door and arguably, they were doing me a favour but still!

purlieu

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2019, 12:14:07 PM »
Clerks is still good. Of its time, certainly, but it's a good thing and does that good thing well.

My initial opinion of him was Clerks through to Strike Back were a gradual drop of quality, from excellent to abysmal, but the last time I saw the other four I realised it was a swift drop straight to abysmal with Mallrats, and then increasingly more so with each film that followed.

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2019, 12:17:40 PM »
I enjoyed them as a teenager but unlike some other 'i watched it as an adult and discovered it was shit' type things, I know I don't need to watch them to know that.

ToneLa

  • Kill your masters
Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2019, 01:25:06 PM »
I still think Mallrats is his best film all around

wh-wh-wh-wh-HUH?!

I have a fondness for the 'rats (find it vaguely watchable) but it's pretty poor

Johnny Textface

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2019, 01:38:57 PM »
wh-wh-wh-wh-HUH?!

I have a fondness for the 'rats (find it vaguely watchable) but it's pretty poor

Probably likes Alien 3 the best too.

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2019, 07:07:42 PM »
Loved his films as a teenager but can't bear to watch them anymore. He can't edit his scripts or films and he's as bad as Russell Brand for trying to awkwardly juggle lengthy pseudo-philosophical monologues and toilet humour that was just too unnecessary and out of place for ol' Derek & Clive-loving me.

Of all the stuff that he's had a hand in, I have to say that Clerks: The Animated Series is the only work of his that still holds up.  Because he had to keep things short and snappy and obviously ditch the swearing, it was far funnier and focused than his films.  Out of all of his stuff, that's the only thing I am willing to go back to, although I should watch Clerks again to see if it still holds up.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 07:55:47 PM by Epic Bisto »

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2019, 07:26:06 PM »
Of all the stuff that's he had a hand in, I have to say that Clerks: The Animated Series is the only work of his that still holds up. 

BIG AMERICAN PARTY!!!!

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2019, 07:57:04 PM »
Yes!  The last 3 or 4 minutes of that episode are wonderful.

BIG MEAN MAN WHIP US! WE ARE SLAVES!

Mister Six

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2019, 07:58:06 PM »
You might all know this, but there's an animated version of the Red State ending here: https://youtu.be/DtXEtwAVgEc

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2019, 08:07:05 PM »
Yes!  The last 3 or 4 minutes of that episode are wonderful.

BIG MEAN MAN WHIP US! WE ARE SLAVES!

"Who's driving?  Ohmigod bear's driving, how can that beeeeee?"

Yeah, much as I think Mallrats is his best film (regardless of what the rest of you think), those few minutes are probably his career topper.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2019, 08:08:38 PM »
Saw Clerks recently, first time in over ten years I've seen it. Holds up very well. It was never going to date all tol badly. Authentic feeling, down to earth relationship dialogue and down to earth observations with some sketch comedy and the odd moment of surrealism.

It is sparing in how it uses broad moments, confidently edited and feels real. Happy to recommend that not just to teenagers but anyone really.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2019, 08:11:00 PM »
Zack and Miri is super-crass (no surprise given the subject matter), but I thought that one was ok actually.

Mister Six

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2019, 08:27:23 PM »
Of all the stuff that he's had a hand in, I have to say that Clerks: The Animated Series is the only work of his that still holds up.  Because he had to keep things short and snappy and obviously ditch the swearing, it was far funnier and focused than his films. 

Also, presumably, because he had a team of other funny people writing, so it wasn't totally incumbent upon him to do the scripts. I do wish it had continued; the arcade machine one showed it had potential for real greatness, and I think it could have been as warmly regarded as classic South Park if it had gone on.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2019, 08:30:42 PM »
BIG AMERICAN PARTY!!!!

Yes!  The last 3 or 4 minutes of that episode are wonderful.

BIG MEAN MAN WHIP US! WE ARE SLAVES!

"Who's driving?  Ohmigod bear's driving, how can that beeeeee?"

You might all know this, but there's an animated version of the Red State ending here: https://youtu.be/DtXEtwAVgEc

That moment when you realise that nobody bothers to read your posts...

Clerks: The Animated Series is bloomin' marvelous though, it has to be said.  Like Clerks II, it's not a bit like the first film but that's easier to accept given that it's a cartoon with cartoon logic.  I love that the second episode is a clip show, which only shows clips from the first episode.  That's inspired.  Also, the line "who's driving?  Oh my God, bear's driving!  How can that be?!" is immortal.

Red State is fairly good for the first two acts and a bit but ruined by the lack of budget required to film the intended ending.  That ending (the four horsemen of the apocalypse) would have made the film a cult classic but alas, it was not to be.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2019, 08:33:40 PM »
Also, presumably, because he had a team of other funny people writing, so it wasn't totally incumbent upon him to do the scripts. I do wish it had continued; the arcade machine one showed it had potential for real greatness, and I think it could have been as warmly regarded as classic South Park if it had gone on.

I agree.

Mister Six

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2019, 08:35:00 PM »
Did someone say something?

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2019, 08:36:27 PM »

Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2019, 08:37:21 PM »

That moment when you realise that nobody bothers to read your posts...

Sorry Eddie.  Think of it as unity with a touch of impatience.

St_Eddie

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2019, 08:39:10 PM »
Sorry Eddie.  I was in a rush and being ignorant.

That's okay.  I'm not annoyed or anything.  I just felt that I should point out that I had already discussed/highlighted those particular things.

Sorry Eddie.  Think of it as unity with a touch of impatience.

Oh, a stealth edit!  No worries.

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2019, 08:44:30 PM »
That moment when you realise that nobody bothers to read your posts...

My (true) excuse is that I was reading and posting via my mobile, and I ALWAYS miss stuff when I do it that way.  Always.

DukeDeMondo

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Re: Was Kevin Smith Always Shit, Or Was He Not?
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2019, 12:59:40 AM »
You might all know this, but there's an animated version of the Red State ending here: https://youtu.be/DtXEtwAVgEc

The people all blowing up all guts and heads exploding everywhere: brilliant.

The POV of the angel and everything after that: absolutely fucking awful.

But ending on all those heads and guts just blasting this way and that for no good reason. John Goodman's face splattered in folk-muck, no clue what's just happened, cut to black.

Fuck that would have been good.