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Brexit Thread Seven: More of this shit

Started by Mister Six, April 05, 2019, 04:29:39 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

NoSleep

Only an idiot would vote for them on that platform (as they stand no chance of winning).

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on September 10, 2019, 12:34:09 PMSo fuck up Labour at the election, then get on their knees and suck off the tories in return for a 2nd referendum.
Cynical old cove that I am, that's how I see their "Plan A" laid out - pretty sure they'll find it easy to justify going back into a coalition with the Tories. "Curbing the worst aspects of Brexit" or "working towards concessions for a second referendum" etc etc.

I wrote to my MP, Layla Moran, asking for some answers.

Quote
Dear Layla,

Thank you for all of your Brexit updates to date.

I'm writing to express concern over the party strategy under Jo Swinson.

I have appreciated your robust opposition to the Conservatives' handling of Brexit so far, and, while I see that the party pledge to revoke Article 50 is a natural evolution of policy, I am concerned that, strategically, in an upcoming election, it is going to split the Remain vote and hand power to the hard right.

All data shows that, by constituency (if not by proportion), there is a large majority for Brexit, and in the likely event of Brexit not having been settled by the next general election, it will inevitably act as a proxy referendum.  I think, in these circumstances, it is fair to predict that Liberal Democrats cannot obtain a majority in Parliament, so I was dismayed to see Jo Swinson ruling out working with Labour recently.  Labour are adopting a sensible position on Brexit (a version of Theresa May's deal, with a referendum on Deal/Remain), and all progressive parties would do well to work together at this incredibly sensitive moment in our country's politics.

Refusing to work with Labour can only be read as an attack on Labour which would inevitably result in a Conservative government.  Thus, current Liberal Democrat policy would tend to suggest tacit support for the Conservatives.  I doubt many Liberal Democrat voters voted for this back in 2017, particularly after the reputation-damaging coalition government in 2010.  Have the Liberal Democrats ruled out a pact with the Conservatives in the future?  How do you intend to oppose Hard Brexit and the far-right if you will not join forces, even informally, with the biggest party making a stand against it?

I'm sure I'll get a non-commital politicians' answer back, but if she replies back WE WUV TORIES, at least we know for sure.

Cuellar

Dear Layla Moran,

Have you stopped beating your husband?

Love,

Constituent

imitationleather

Dear Layla Moran,

What is your favourite Wallace & Gromit film?

Ta,
imitationleather

Rich Uncle Skeleton

Quote from: Darles Chickens on September 10, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
I wrote to my MP, Layla Moran, asking for some answers.

I'm sure I'll get a non-commital politicians' answer back, but if she replies back WE WUV TORIES, at least we know for sure.

Nice. Our MP is wera hobhouse, may have to do the same for all the good it'll do

Cloud

#2796
Quote from: holyzombiejesus on September 09, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
I've been wondering how many remainers would now favour an agreement for a soft exit in the name of compromise and trying to bring people back together.

I would, and I feel pretty strongly for remain, but more strongly for putting an end to all this chaos and division and willing to compromise. First preference would be Labour's soft brexit vs. remain vote, second preference just plain soft/compromise brexit.

Yes it'd be bad for both camps taking rules from the EU and not having any input but I'm not sure I fully believe in the "worst of both worlds" or "no deal is better than a bad deal" narratives any more (not sure I ever did) - I still think this would be less damaging than a no deal exit which seems to be the only other way it can go now other than remain (and the violent full-racist far-right shitstorm that would probably bring upon us at least if it wasn't put to a second referendum first).

My vote if/when it comes to it will be going to Labour most likely.  Ideally Green, but... FPTP, 'wasted' vote, important election, yada yada.  Not voting for the Lib Dems,  honestly what's the point, here are my issues with it:
1) They might as well now be called the Lib Tories
2) At least if there's a second vote if remain wins it we can say look, that was democratic too and people have changed their minds.  Yes, blithering idiots will say "best of three?" or "knew you'd just keep having votes until you got your way!", but at least we'd have some form of defence.  Just straight up overturning the referendum and I'd grudgingly have to admit they have a point about it damaging trust in democracy, and wouldn't look forward to the aforementioned far-right reactionary shitstorm.
3) Because of FPTP, their revoke policy is academic anyway.  They won't get a majority, it'd take a strong and stable (tm) increase in support over at least a couple of GEs to get near that point.  It'd only serve as a brexit protest vote, which surely would be better spent on crossing the remain box under a Labour government (or Labour led coalition if needs be) rather than splitting the remainer camp and increasing the chances of yet another Tory-led government (if not a majority then Tory/BXP deal of some sort probably).

Counter-point to 2, they'd probably whinge that it's been sabotaged as even they would prefer remain to a 'BRINO' kind of thing, well I'd say tough, you had your chance for a harder Brexit and the Tories blew it.

Quote from: Replies From View on September 10, 2019, 01:31:17 AM
You don't even need to use the label 'socialism'

This does make me think that it may be preferable for *whisper* socialists... to create new branding/terminology now (as we tend to do often enough in our language anyway).  The label has been co-opted by lots of vocal lying cunts in the media (traditional and social/youtube) to imply that it's the same thing as communism - the full fascist sort, no less - who've managed to convince those less informed that that by extension caring about things like welfare and public transport would be a fast path to the Gulags.  Okay generally people do care about the NHS, but they get distracted by the dirty word 'socialism' and completely blinded by it.

Fambo Number Mive

QuoteBoris Johnson has said "there is a way" of getting a Brexit deal as he prepares to discuss his options with Democratic Unionist leader Arlene Foster.

The PM, whose attempts to force an early election have been blocked by MPs, said "loads of people" wanted an agreement but he was prepared to leave without one if "absolutely necessary".

I presume he is discussing this with Foster because of the confidence and supply agreement? Not that it matters much if he loses the DUP as the Government are on minus 43 or something.

buttgammon

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on September 10, 2019, 03:43:59 PM
I presume he is discussing this with Foster because of the confidence and supply agreement? Not that it matters much if he loses the DUP as the Government are on minus 43 or something.

My interpretation is that if he is actually bothering to engage in any thought about alternatives (a big if), he's thinking about an NI-only backstop; the DUP would go mental but as you say, that's irrelevant now.

Cuellar

Isn't there talk of giving the Northern Irish parliament a veto though? I fully agree that if it weren't for that he'd do it in a heartbeat now the majority is fucked anyway. Who cares about those bog-brained Murphys?

Replies From View

I wouldn't call a few potatoes going mouldy "troubles" anyway.  Too much time on their hands.

Quote from: Cuellar on September 10, 2019, 08:20:52 PM
Isn't there talk of giving the Northern Irish parliament a veto though? I fully agree that if it weren't for that he'd do it in a heartbeat now the majority is fucked anyway. Who cares about those bog-brained Murphys?

They are not all called Murphy.  Some of them are called Varadkar.

buttgammon

Quote from: Cuellar on September 10, 2019, 08:20:52 PM
Isn't there talk of giving the Northern Irish parliament a veto though? I fully agree that if it weren't for that he'd do it in a heartbeat now the majority is fucked anyway. Who cares about those bog-brained Murphys?

How would a veto work considering Stormont has completely stopped function and is in no prospect of returning?

Quote from: NoSleep on September 10, 2019, 09:07:26 AM
History will look on the LibDems poorly.

Corbyn's fence setting will be looked on badly, at least the LibDems actually have a clear position.

thugler

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on September 10, 2019, 09:44:44 PM
Corbyn's fence setting will be looked on badly, at least the LibDems actually have a clear position.

This is balls. You can't completely ignore a significant portion of your voters, not to mention that many of the seats labour need to win voted leave. Simply having a policy of ignoring the referendum is stupid for a party that represents that many people. Fence sitting was essential and has largely worked. The lib dems policy is confused. They supposedly want no brexit over anything but don't seem to be willing to do much to make it happen, stepping by so tory pro brexit mp's can get a free run at seats? And refusing to countenance doing a deal with labour?

Replies From View

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on September 10, 2019, 09:44:44 PM
Corbyn's fence setting will be looked on badly, at least the LibDems actually have a clear position.

The Lib Dems can pretend to believe whatever simplistic interpretation of Brexit they want, because a) they represent the views of so few people that the complexities of holding together so many differing, contradictory viewpoints don't apply, and b) if they get within a sniff of power they know from their 2010-2015 history that they will be forgiven for not revoking A50 once they are in any Tory coalition.  And surely you know that this is what would happen.

How can anybody be giving the Lib Dems a second chance now, taking them at their word, or wilfully voting for them when they know that their sole function is to split the left-leaning / pro-remain vote in order to keep Corbyn out of government?  Stupidity doesn't cover it.

NoSleep

It's the LibDems that have broken rank at this crucial time, not Labour. They want it all to be about them when it's about all of our futures.

Paul Calf

I'd guess that someone's been whispering poison into Lib Dem ears.

NoSleep

The problem is that they listened, in that case. As a GE gets closer they are going to find even their erstwhile allies in the press telling all to vote Labour if they want a serious chance of remaining in the EU.

BlodwynPig

Its all opium and caviar to the liberal scum

Dr Rock

Quote from: NoSleep on September 11, 2019, 07:33:41 AM
The problem is that they listened, in that case. As a GE gets closer they are going to find even their erstwhile allies in the press telling all to vote Labour if they want a serious chance of remaining in the EU.

CH4 news said polls point to a hung parliament. Oh unless all Remainer Lib-Dems vote Labour, who would then win in a landslide.

Dr Rock

Can't Labour bribe the Lib-Dems to lend their support to tactical voting to get the Tories out and stay in the EU via a referendum that Remain would win? Like a bit more proportional representation? This would keep the Tories from scraping total power via FPTP like they usually do, forever more (or until they changed the system back). And is a fairer system anyway.

Replies From View

Quote from: Dr Rock on September 11, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Can't Labour bribe the Lib-Dems

No because the Lib Dem leader won't allow engagement with Corbyn and new recruit Chuka doesn't want to be associated again with Labour after so pointedly leaving them.  Their egos are what matter in all this.

NoSleep

The LibDems are committed to the Tories winning and the UK leaving the EU. To them that is preferable in exchange for a couple of possible extra seats in Parliament.

Dr Rock

Yes if Swinson and the party are beyond reason we have to hope the potential voters aren't.

Zetetic

Particularly if you've got Labour candidates in relevant seats that are clearly in favour of remaining in the EU.

Which you probably would without any deliberate choice, simply because of the pool that they're being drawn from in those areas.

Buelligan

By the way, did you know, for the many many UK citizens living and working in the EU who are not pensioners, students or posted workers, all of us will lose our right to free NHS healthcare if we visit Britain (either for accidents and emergencies or ongoing conditions, including pregnancy) following a no deal exit. 

Yes, that's correct, British citizens will be denied free NHS care, even in an emergency, when visiting their home country.

https://www.bbc.com/news/49592440

George Oscar Bluth II

Quote from: thugler on September 10, 2019, 10:44:16 PM
This is balls. You can't completely ignore a significant portion of your voters, not to mention that many of the seats labour need to win voted leave. Simply having a policy of ignoring the referendum is stupid for a party that represents that many people. Fence sitting was essential and has largely worked. The lib dems policy is confused. They supposedly want no brexit over anything but don't seem to be willing to do much to make it happen, stepping by so tory pro brexit mp's can get a free run at seats? And refusing to countenance doing a deal with labour?

I seem to remember that some serious academic research ultimately concluded that there is one Labour seat where the majority of Labour voters voted leave, Doncaster North (Ed Miliband).

I think sometimes Labour people forget who their voters actually are. Not everyone in the North is a racist, shaven headed white guy who JUST WANTS TO LEAVE NOW.

holyzombiejesus

Why should it matter if a majority of Labour voters voted leave? There aren't many constituencies where we can ignore a significant % of our voters. I've met plenty of Labour voters who don't conform to the thick racist stereotype, who want us to leave and are now refusing or reluctant to vote for us. Actually, even if they do conform to the stereotype, we still need to work with them and understand why they have those beliefs. The causes can often be traced back to frustration, bitterness, austerity, impoverishment, New Labour and ignorance; jettisoning them only adds to their list of grievances.

Buelligan

I agree with this.  There are good socialists I know of who are pro-Brexit.  I think it's in part because they were poisoned by the TTIP stuff* and the broad-brush "bosses club" ideas, switched off by stuff like this before they ever got to thinking about what protections and freedoms the EU offers to the workers and the poor (and it does).  It permitted me to afford to live somewhere beautiful that I love, which I could never have done in the UK, once they stopped letting people live in vans.

Rich people will always have their rights and privileges protected, in or out, but the poor and those without membership to the VIP lounge, we'll be fucked as arse by Brexit.  Explaining the need for solidarity with these groups, with people like me, who many might dismiss as privileged (probably because they think all Brits living in the EU have fat pensions and swimming pools, rather than being the working poor) is not easy because, I think, they've closed their ears and minds.  Mostly anyway.


*IMO, this was purposely pushed into our consciousnesses prior to the referendum, precisely to do what it did to many good hearted socialists, the anti-EU Labour voters we're speaking of.  At the end of the day, any negotiation with the US, post-Brexit will mean something like TTIP but perhaps worse, for the UK anyway.  This was always the plan, I think.  Similarly, the crushing of Greece, which again, turned many socialists against the EU.  I think it was a coordinated plan by some capitalists (mainly) in the US to fuck Europe as a united economic and political force that is saw as a threat. That's just my view.