Brexit Thread Seven: More of this shit

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

This is balls. You can't completely ignore a significant portion of your voters, not to mention that many of the seats labour need to win voted leave. Simply having a policy of ignoring the referendum is stupid for a party that represents that many people. Fence sitting was essential and has largely worked. The lib dems policy is confused. They supposedly want no brexit over anything but don't seem to be willing to do much to make it happen, stepping by so tory pro brexit mp's can get a free run at seats? And refusing to countenance doing a deal with labour?

Fence sitting has largely worked? Lol.    Seriously,  if you believe that then you are living on another planet. 

[Fambo Number Mive]

Clive Lewis has a Brexit survey: https://www.clivelewis.org/brexit1/

[Paul Calf]

Oh Clive, Clive.

He's got the wrong sort of control on his forms; some of those checkboxes should be radio buttons. A proportion of his users will be unable to work out how to complete the form properly and his data will be nasty as a result.

[holyzombiejesus]

Fence sitting has largely worked? Lol.    Seriously,  if you believe that then you are living on another planet.

And what would have worked? What would you, you little prick, have had us done to represent our voters?

[Mr_Simnock]

reading borboski replies is not good for the soul, they tend to suck it out of you

[holyzombiejesus]

reading borboski replies is not good for the soul, they tend to suck it out of you

drizzle isn't borboski/ tfm etc as he was banned from the Corbyn threads.

[NoSleep]

Clive Lewis has a Brexit survey: https://www.clivelewis.org/brexit1/

Why is his referendum option not clear what would be the choices? So that everybody who wishes to remain votes for A50 revocation instead?

[thugler]

Fence sitting has largely worked? Lol.    Seriously,  if you believe that then you are living on another planet.

It has! The current situation is owed largely to refusing to go entirely with one or the other. Going full remain would have allowed tories/ukip to take a huge portion of labour voters in key areas. Offering a referendum is the only sensible solution to keep both onside.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

*IMO, this was purposely pushed into our consciousnesses prior to the referendum, precisely to do what it did to many good hearted socialists, the anti-EU Labour voters we're speaking of.  At the end of the day, any negotiation with the US, post-Brexit will mean something like TTIP but perhaps worse, for the UK anyway.  This was always the plan, I think.  Similarly, the crushing of Greece, which again, turned many socialists against the EU.  I think it was a coordinated plan by some capitalists (mainly) in the US to fuck Europe as a united economic and political force that is saw as a threat. That's just my view.

Tell you what grinds my gears, the pure fucking dishonesty of the Vote Leave pricks using TTIP as a reason to vote leave, and now the same bunch of wankers pushing the (almost certainly much worse) US-UK trade deal as a reason why leaving is good.

As you say, they co-opted something that concerned the left to win votes for their nonsense. And then fucking TTIP never happened anyway.

[Paul Calf]

TTIP didn't happen because the EU were able to oppose it; something that the UK on its own would find extremely difficult.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

And what would have worked? What would you, you little prick, have had us done to represent our voters?

Labour needs an explicit pro remain position. The electorate will not tolerate this ambiguity in policy as evidenced by the collapse of their support in the local and Euro elections.  Policy needs to be driven by the wishes of it's membership, not by the likes of Seumas Milne and Len McCluskey.

Regarding representation - Labour does have an historic duty to pro-Brexit workers in small towns - that isn't to try and appease them with a complete nonsense position, but be fully upfront about the harm of Brexit, and that xenophobia and anti-migrant racism are a dead end.

[Cloud]

Oh Clive, Clive.

"Everyone knows that's the story to Humpty Dumpty.  Where have you really been?"

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

It has! The current situation is owed largely to refusing to go entirely with one or the other. Going full remain would have allowed tories/ukip to take a huge portion of labour voters in key areas. Offering a referendum is the only sensible solution to keep both onside.

Dude, the current situation is a car crash.  Also, how many Brexit voters do you know who want another referendum? It's simply not a vote winner for Brexit supporters.

[Buelligan]

The tory party, have made themselves the victims of letting the Brexit wag the dog, it's rapidly turning them into a puppet for Farage and Bannon and an international laughing stock and avatar for bad policy and governance.

Labour's position reflects the reality of its member's positions - a wide range of opinions, expressed democratically.  The Labour Party existed before Brexit reared its moronic head and it will continue long after, long after Leave or Remain return to being what they are, just words.

[thugler]

Dude, the current situation is a car crash.  Also, how many Brexit voters do you know who want another referendum? It's simply not a vote winner for Brexit supporters.

A referendum would be a means of reaching an end point, which most on both sides want. Noone wants a referendum or an election in itself, they want their preferred result: deal/no deal/remain.

To answer your question though, more than the zero leave voters that would support a policy of just remain anyway that you are advocating.

[holyzombiejesus]

"Dude". State of you.

I know leave voters who want a referendum but that's because I talk to them rather than perceive them as some brain-dead bigoted 'other'. Others that don't want a referendum will still vote for Labour, as they did in Peterborough, as we're not disowning them and discounting their views.

[thugler]

If 'just remain' is popular enough to win the election supposedly, remain would certainly win the 2nd referendum anyway.. So a policy that is palatable to both is preferable.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

"Dude". State of you.

I know leave voters who want a referendum but that's because I talk to them rather than perceive them as some brain-dead bigoted 'other'.

Oh, I don't know. I'm tired, I desperately want a Labour victory but have met so many people over the last few weeks who aren't the "thick racists" that I'd labelled leavers as,

Seems like you've had a bit of a journey to come to this realisation! well at least you've "started talking to them" now. Poor you.  Are you tired again?

[Buelligan]

What do you get out of being such an unmitigated cunt?  Brilliant point btw.  Isn't it better to be open-minded?

[Replies From View]

Fence sitting has largely worked? Lol.    Seriously,  if you believe that then you are living on another planet.

Engage with what people are saying or fuck off.  There are plenty of other places on the internet if "lol you don't agree with me" is your level.

[Zetetic]

I've met plenty of Labour voters who don't conform to the thick racist stereotype, who want us to leave and are now refusing or reluctant to vote for us. Actually, even if they do conform to the stereotype, we still need to work with them and understand why they have those beliefs. The causes can often be traced back to frustration, bitterness, austerity, impoverishment, New Labour and ignorance; jettisoning them only adds to their list of grievances.

Absolutely.

With these people and their concerns in mind, what sort of deal should Labour be pursuing (to put to a referendum)?

That's not just targeted at holyzombiejesus to be clear. Answering this seems more useful to me than the current strand of discussion.

[StewartLeehaslethimselfgo]

Good stuff

''Official government documents confirm Boris Johnson is prepared to punish those who can least afford it with a No Deal Brexit to benefit his wealthy friends.

He must be stopped.''

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1171884567923482624

[Darles Chickens]

Absolutely.

With these people and their concerns in mind, what sort of deal should Labour be pursuing (to put to a referendum)?

That's not just targeted at holyzombiejesus to be clear. Answering this seems more useful to me than the current strand of discussion.

Obviously the best thing Labour can do is convince people that they will address the domestic issues which led to the problems which are routinely and erroneously attributed to the EU: self-imposed austerity, insecure employment practices, etc.  But 40 years of media propaganda doesn't wash away easily, so many people are deeply suspicious of the EU, and there's little you can say to change minds.  That said, Labour offering hope is still as big a vote winner as ever, even perhaps if they offer a referendum.

If you take the view that the only Brexit which makes sense is the one which allows for as much divergence from the EU as possible, then the only option is May's withdrawal agreement or something similar.  The situation with Ireland / Northern Ireland means that nothing harder is possible, unless there's no deal at all, which is something that Labour won't countenance.

So really, it's only some variant on May's deal.  Anything else isn't credible, or it'll be a softer option.  I think it's fairly well established that it just makes more sense to be a full EU member than to be EEA/EFTA like Norway or Switzerland, still have to pay into the budget, but have no say.  The situation with Ireland means there still needs to be a customs union, which rules out the only EEA advantage of having an independent trade policy.  With a backstop, and the miracle of some technological solution in the future, perhaps that also becomes an option.  Or maybe with the reunion of Ireland.

[Darles Chickens]

Good stuff

''Official government documents confirm Boris Johnson is prepared to punish those who can least afford it with a No Deal Brexit to benefit his wealthy friends.

He must be stopped.''

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1171884567923482624

The released Yellowhammer document has a redacted paragraph, but luckily we can see which one it was from the leaked document, and, of course, it's the most damning:

Tariffs make UK petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability, but UK government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans. This leads to big financial losses and the closure of two refineries (which are converted to import terminals) with about 2,000 direct job losses. Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions they directly supply. Government analysis of the impact of no-deal on refineries continues.

[Zetetic]

^ Crossposting to the Johnson thread about that.

[jobotic]

So they have been determined to leave with no deal, duped their supporters into demanding it too whilst all the time knowing how it would fuck them over and attempting to hide it from them.

Surely SURELY eyes have to be opened now. Probably not.

Cant be good for Farage though, who is angrily demanding that this happens.

[imitationleather]

Just read the document. Anyone with any ability for logical reasoning would have predicted all this would happen already right?

[Funcrusher]

drizzle isn't borboski/ tfm etc as he was banned from the Corbyn threads.

It's him. He is not observing the ban.

[bgmnts]

Nigel Farage really needs to die. I know someone will spring up in his place but fuck me just give us a win. Make us happy for a few days.

To pervert gullible cunts like he has. It's just criminal.

[Mr_Simnock]

It's him. He is not observing the ban.

I agree, I'm sure that Neil has fiddled with the tfm account in the background to ensure that can't post in these threads but this turd has a sockpuppet or two so he can keep going. The seamus milne mention above gives it away and that stupid 'dude' comment too.