Brexit Thread Seven: More of this shit

[BlodwynPig]

'What on earth are you on about, Blodders?'

Toby Young, realism. More real than all of the above posts about tolpuddle martyrs, toby jugs and excrement.

So, your reaction was bafflement.

'Toby Young approaches you at the hotel bar, still glistening and somewhat gelatinous with sweat. You act baffled and confused.'

'"You alright, mate? You look a bit zoned out fella", Toby smirks before ordering two large Jameson's for himself and "a tonic water for the lady"'

[biggytitbo]

Don't usualy have much time for Lewis Goodall but i think he's right here - https://news.sky.com/story/labour-and-the-tiggers-need-to-get-real-11695821


Despite the fact they really want to have the EU elections as a sort of proxy referendum for staying in the EU, its bizarre how the various status quo remain parties are unable to coalesce around a single remain ticket. CHUK in particularly appear to have totally messed up their big opportunity by being so badly prepared. Whereas Faragee and his Brexit party already have 11 MEPs before we have even had the elections and look set to at least finish 2nd if not 1st.

[Paul Calf]

Don't usualy have much time for Lewis Goodall but i think he's right here - https://news.sky.com/story/labour-and-the-tiggers-need-to-get-real-11695821


Despite the fact they really want to have the EU elections as a sort of proxy referendum for staying in the EU, its bizarre how the various status quo remain parties are unable to coalesce around a single remain ticket. CHUK in particularly appear to have totally messed up their big opportunity by being so badly prepared. Whereas Faragee and his Brexit party already have 11 MEPs before we have even had the elections and look set to at least finish 2nd if not 1st.

Man you don't normally agree with spends 500 words wanking over Farage on Murdoch-owned right-wing establishment attack dog Sky News and suddenly he's right?

Imagine my surprise, biggy.

[Paul Calf]

Only the second event of his new Brexit Party in the second city.

He was electric.

Oh, Nige!

He is a folk hero to his adherents and many who despise him don't understand his power.

Oh, Nige!

For Nigel Farage - this Dulwich school boy, denizen of the political scene for decades - is doing something.

Oh, NIGE! DO SOMETHING NIGE!

Farage understands this only too well.

He understands me, you see.

You honestly think this is good, Biggy?

[NoSleep]

Something. Tinge have got bags of something, too.

[jobotic]

Of course he thinks this is good. Farage's politics are his politics. Why is this pretending that he's anything else still going on?

[biggytitbo]

Man you don't normally agree with spends 500 words wanking over Farage on Murdoch-owned right-wing establishment attack dog Sky News and suddenly he's right?

Imagine my surprise, biggy.

Well I said I didn't have much time for him because Goodall is a hardcore remainer who usually does little to disguise the fact. And Sky News isn't owned by Murdoch.

Are you even able to have a grown up discussion about this? Rather than being an ode to Nige, that article is more a wake up call to the remain side who said they wanted to have the EU elections but appear to be in strategic disarray about now to approach them and are all set to repeat their usual electoral ineptitude.

If Farage does win from nowhere, where does that leave the 2nd referendum zealots? We had your proxy referendum and you lost again.

[idunnosomename]

Ironically, he's too stupid to realise it.

He actually did a R4 programme about it before he got #cancelled (not that that was a thing then). Which obviously wasnt very good because I clearly forgot what his father defined meritocracy as

[Huxleys Babkins]

Well I said I didn't have much time for him because Goodall is a hardcore remainer who usually does little to disguise the fact. And Sky News isn't owned by Murdoch.

Are you even able to have a grown up discussion about this? Rather than being an ode to Nige, that article is more a wake up call to the remain side who said they wanted to have the EU elections but appear to be in strategic disarray about now to approach them and are all set to repeat their usual electoral ineptitude.

If Farage does win from nowhere, where does that leave the 2nd referendum zealots? We had your proxy referendum and you lost again.

Farage is, just like in 2016, selling an undeliverable fantasy that he'll never be held accountable for.

Remain politicians could offer similar lies, but to what end?

[biggytitbo]

Almost as undeliverable as the fantasy that we can remain and reform the EU that the remainers have been trying to sell us for 25 years.


Of course there is a perfectly deliverable, realistic version of brexit that is a reasonable compromise between leave and remain, has the agreement of the EU and would put Farage out of business, but MPs keep voting against it.

[Howj Begg]

Banks and Leave EU faked migrant videos.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1118200939670900737

[jobotic]

Banks and Leave EU faked migrant videos.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1118200939670900737

Go on Biggy, dismiss this.

[biggytitbo]

Why would I dismiss it? If it's true ('Although the photos were never used') then its unethical political dirty tricks but it does not alter the fact we voted to leave EU because we want to be an independent country not because we were tricked by the massively overinflated influence of facebook adverts. That ad isn't even about the EU either.

The overlying issue is whether the full on Clintonisation of the 'remain resistance' is likely to end where it ended in the US, in a dead end, backfiring on it proponents and wasting an immense amount of political energy and capital in the process.

[Paul Calf]

Why would I dismiss it? If it's true ('Although the photos were never used') then its unethical political dirty tricks but it does not alter the fact we voted to leave EU because we want to be an independent country not because we were tricked by the massively overinflated influence of facebook adverts. That ad isn't even about the EU either.

'Fact'.

[Buelligan]

Almost as undeliverable as the fantasy that we can remain and reform the EU that the remainers have been trying to sell us for 25 years.

I don't even live in Britain but it's plain as a pikestaff, even looking from here, what ails Britain is that politicians (Labour and the tories and all the other fucks) have pretty much asset-stripped the country.  They've fucked the poor (that isn't even strong enough) but that was OK, for a while, whilst all the balls where in the air, then they had the financial crash.  That made the paper over the cracks finally give.

Farage is selling the poor a story about being lions, poor brave cannon-fodder lions, promising them all a bar of chocolate and ten Players if they'll just help him with this one big last push.  It's a story as old as time but each generation gets born yesterday again.

Reform of the UK or the EU is possible, everything changes, that's the one certainty.  Only possible to make those changes count for the workers if they understand where to push and who to back.  Farage is a user and a destroyer with no loyalty to anyone but himself, it's so fucking obvious it shocks me that any sensible person can fall for his lies.  He's like the Anti-Corbyn only smaller.

[Replies From View]

Almost as undeliverable as the fantasy that we can remain and reform the EU that the remainers have been trying to sell us for 25 years.

Under right-wing governments, you keep forgetting to add.  Who have had no desire to break the Thatcherite aspects of the EU.

You (claim to) have so much faith in what Corbyn might achieve when we are outside the EU, yet can't imagine him working to reform the EU just because Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron didn't want to.

[ajsmith2]

Corbyn/May talks floundering on the issue of whether to do a deal with Trump, claims this article:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1115278/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-labour-conservatives-donald-trump-eu

[biggytitbo]

Just as the EU are looking to restart their trade talks with...Trump.


Labour's position on trying to 'lock' future positions into law makes a mockery of leaving the EU at all, if they want to forever take various policy areas out of the contention of democratic politics then why don't they just support staying in the EU, as that's what it exists to do?

[Replies From View]

Corbyn/May talks floundering on the issue of whether to do a deal with Trump, claims this article:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1115278/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-labour-conservatives-donald-trump-eu

Mrs May and Mr Corbyn have been locked in key discussions this month as an impasse on her Brexit deal is sought.

MAN WE NEED AN IMPASSE SO BADLY RIGHT NOW

[Replies From View]

Just as the EU are looking to restart their trade talks with...Trump.


Labour's position on trying to 'lock' future positions into law makes a mockery of leaving the EU at all, if they want to forever take various policy areas out of the contention of democratic politics then why don't they just support staying in the EU, as that's what it exists to do?

Probably because Labour voters on the Leave end of the spectrum would see that as something of a betrayal, and if we want to win the next general election we need to appeal to their perspective in such a shallow way, because we don't have the time to educate them that the EU isn't the cause of all their woes.

I'm sure I have explained this to you many times already, by the way.

[biggytitbo]

Latest yougov voting intentions poll. Do you still think its a good idea to have these elections?

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via
@YouGov
, 15 - 16 Apr

Farage polling more than all the hard remain parties combined.

[biggytitbo]

Funny though:

YouGov poll for the European election shows that Conservative Party would receive 15% in an European election. It would be the worst election result of the party on the national level since it's creation in 1834.

[Replies From View]

Latest yougov voting intentions poll. Do you still think its a good idea to have these elections?



Farage polling more than all the hard remain parties combined.

And will that translate to seats do you think?

[biggytitbo]

Yes, the EU elections are a form of PR I believe. Not that that matters, they're effectively an opinion poll - even the remain side were saying they'd be a proxy referendum. Although I imagine they won't be saying that now as their notorious electoral ineptitude becomes apparent.

[jobotic]

Huurah for Nigel! Trebles all round.

Imagine wanting to lock workers rights into law. What kind of socialist would want to see that?

[Paul Calf]

Imagine not knowing that how you tell YouGov you'll vote several weeks out from a European election might not be the same as how you actually do vote in the election.

Farage is trying to scare May into not holding the Euro elections because he's a power-hungry fascist masquerading as a democrat.

Biggy's reasons for doing the same remain opaque.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Latest yougov voting intentions poll. Do you still think its a good idea to have these elections?



Farage polling more than all the hard remain parties combined.

So 4% are Don't know/other parties?

[Darles Chickens]

And will that translate to seats do you think?

It definitely would, as EU elections have a proportionalish system:

1) Take the highest percentage result on the list: that party wins a seat.
2) Halve that result, and put it back into the list.
3) Repeat until all seats assigned.

So, the small parties are still disadvantaged, and it still requires a degree of tactical voting.  The best thing pro-EU parties could do would be to form an alliance to avoid splitting the vote, but I don't see it happening.  As it stands there's no obvious voting strategy for Remainers who wish to treat the elections like a proxy referendum.

And it's a shame that a vote for Labour in no way confers a pro-EU opinion.  They're still the right party if you want to bump up the socialist group numbers in the EU Parliament, but as it stands their position is still unclear on the EU, and they're just going to split the progressive vote.

[Replies From View]

I don't give a shit about it being like a proxy referendum; I just don't need our representatives in the EU being grotesquely fuckwitted enough to intentionally sabotage our future relationship with the EU forever.

[pancreas]

They're still the right party if you want to bump up the socialist group numbers in the EU Parliament, but as it stands their position is still unclear on the EU, and they're just going to split the progressive vote.

I don't find it unclear. The position is: do the minimum amount of damage to society. Which currently is taking the form: BRINO plus 'confirmatory vote'—which secretly means second referendum, I think.