Star Wars ep IX: The Rise Of Skywalker

[Kelvin]

Rey's position changing wound.[/center]

Oh, you bastard, Eddie. Now she always has her mouth open. It's the red and orange poster thing all over again.

[St_Eddie]

Oh, you bastard, Eddie. Now she always has her mouth open. It's the red and orange poster thing all over again.

Haha.  Told ya.

[greenman]

I agree with all of this, except for the praise towards Rogue One.  I hate that movie.  I find it to be dull, soulless and lifeless.  Speaking of soulless and lifeless; that Peter Cushing facsimile is a fucking disgrace.

Actually felt like the only Starwars post Jedi that did have a soul to it rather than being a CGI thrill ride or nostalgia fest, maybe a bit less grandly heroic than the originals but I think part of the issue is that the franchise generally has moved towards cartoonishness, some of it in Jedi but much more heavily afterwards.

Again I don't think Starwars is really THAT difficult to do wel its just that the prequels and sequels have shown both a lack of ability and interest in doing so. Disney had the chance to attempt to make something o quality but they preferred to hire a hack to make a formula attraction for a quick return on investment instead.

[Replies From View]

If anyone needs a prequel to Episode IV, Rogue One fills that gap far more satisfyingly than the prequel trilogy.

[St_Eddie]

If anyone needs a prequel to Episode IV, Rogue One fills that gap far more satisfyingly than the prequel trilogy.

I recommend watching A New Hope immediately after Rogue One for the maximum dissonance between Darth Vader's final scene in Rogue One and his introduction in A New Hope, which is set mere moments later.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Rogue One established that Darth Vader lives in a badass volcano castle and, for that, I'll always be thankful.

[St_Eddie]

Original trilogy = Star Wars

Prequel trilogy = Star Laws

Sequel trilogy = Star Bores

[Kelvin]

Rogue One established that Darth Vader lives in a badass volcano castle and, for that, I'll always be thankful.

It also established that he thought it was funny to say, "Be careful not to choke on your aspirations" while force choking somebody.

[Huxleys Babkins]

It also established that he thought it was funny to say, "Be careful not to choke on your aspirations" while force choking somebody.

Yeah. In his badass volcano castle.

[Mr_Simnock]

I recommend watching A New Hope immediately after Rogue One for the maximum dissonance between Darth Vader's final scene in Rogue One and his introduction in A New Hope, which is set mere moments later.

Is it ever established anywhere exactly how long the gap is supposed to be between films? I always thought it was a bit longer than mere moments.

[Shaky]

Yeah, seems it would be longer than mere moments if Leia has only just got the Death Star plans at the end of Rogue One. There are multiple claims online that it's anywhere from 10 minutes to 3 weeks later, so I'm guessing the truth is hours or days.

[St_Eddie]

Yeah, seems it would be longer than mere moments if Leia has only just got the Death Star plans at the end of Rogue One. There are multiple claims online that it's anywhere from 10 minutes to 3 weeks later, so I'm guessing the truth is hours or days.

Weeks is very generous.  Days is possible , though I'd argue that hours seems more likely.  Either way, Vader's behaviour at the end of Rogue One doesn't tally with his behaviour at the start of A New Hope, be it hours, days or weeks.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

Johnson moved Kylo's scar, as he thought it would look goofy at that particular place. He explained that eight months before release.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-last-jedi-kylo-ren-scar-change/

And yes, the whole point of the projection was to confuse Kylo and to buy time for the Resistance to leave. We actually cut from trimmed and brownish-bearded hologram Luke to the actual Luke who's remained on the planet and has the same appearance as in the rest of the film (or in the final scene of The Force Awakens). Luke also says "See ya around, kid!", which is a typical Han Solo line in a lower voice that's supposed to imitate Han. That's deliberate, not a continuity issue, and I guess we're supposed to be confused when Luke casually appears on Ach-To with this refreshed look. There's no explanation on how he came up here, no big entrance scene. He's just there.

Weeks is very generous.  Days is possible , though I'd argue that hours seems more likely.  Either way, Vader's behaviour at the end of Rogue One doesn't tally with his behaviour at the start of A New Hope, be it hours, days or weeks.

Vader wasn't supposed to be a major player in the empire in A New Hope. He was just this free agent sent by upper management that nobody could stand among the commandment. And he had a prior beef with Obi Wan Kenobi. That's only starting with The Empire Strikes Back that he's supposed to be the unofficial second in charge. Vader in Rogue One is actually consistent with his status in Star Wars, bar the original film. So, the continuity issue didn't start with Rogue One.

[Blumf]

Johnson moved Kylo's scar...

...to confound audience expectations.

[St_Eddie]

Johnson moved Kylo's scar, as he thought it would look goofy at that particular place. He explained that eight months before release.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-last-jedi-kylo-ren-scar-change/

I'm aware of that.  However, it still remains a continuity issue.  Likewise, if that shot of Luke in The Rise of Skywalker is indeed a flashback to the destruction of his academy, then J.J. Abrams may well have had his own reasons for wanting to change the continuity of Luke's appearance from what was depicted in the last movie.  However, just because a director has their reasons, that doesn't make it any less of a continuity issue in-universe.

And yes, the whole point of the projection was to confuse Kylo and to buy time for the Resistance to leave. We actually cut from trimmed and brownish-bearded hologram Luke to the actual Luke who's remained on the planet and has the same appearance as in the rest of the film (or in the final scene of The Force Awakens). Luke also says "See ya around, kid!", which is a typical Han Solo line in a lower voice that's supposed to imitate Han. That's deliberate, not a continuity issue...

Is this directed at me?  When did I ever say that any of that was a continuity issue?

Having said that, whilst we're on the subject of Luke's force projection; why didn't he explain his plan to the resistance prior to confronting Kylo?  Why didn't he tell them that he was buying them time?  Why did he risk them not figuring out what his plan was?  Also, how did he know that there was an exit through the back of the base and that the crystal foxes would lead them to it?

Nothing in this movie makes any sense when you really think about it.  Every single scene is riddled with problems in logic.

Vader wasn't supposed to be a major player in the empire in A New Hope. He was just this free agent sent by upper management that nobody could stand among the commandment. And he had a prior beef with Obi Wan Kenobi. That's only starting with The Empire Strikes Back that he's supposed to be the unofficial second in charge. Vader in Rogue One is actually consistent with his status in Star Wars, bar the original film. So, the continuity issue didn't start with Rogue One.

Absolutely.  It's still jarring if one watches A New Hope immediately after watching Rogue One though.  They could have just not had the scene of Vader wrecking shit up in the movie (in fact, it was only added via the reshoots).  It's not like this is a documentary.  They didn't have to include that scene.  It exists solely for the purpose of fan service.  That fan service comes at the expense of being able to have the movie join up with the first movie in a more seamless manner.

[greenman]

Doesn't seem much of an issue to me, we never really see Vader up against non Jedi in the original films and I think Rogue One sticks to a pretty brutal style of fighting akin to Empire and Jedi rather than the flowery wushu moves of the prequels.

Its playing to the fans definitely after the films main story has ended but I think pretty harmlessly so and inline with the originals.

Politically isn't the idea that when the Senate goes and the Emperor becomes a monarch Vader shifts to a clearer #2 role rather than the more unofficial overseer of A New Hope, no more pretence is needed.

[St_Eddie]

Doesn't seem much of an issue to me, we never really see Vader up against non Jedi in the original films and I think Rogue One sticks to a pretty brutal style of fighting akin to Empire and Jedi rather than the flowery wushu moves of the prequels.

Its playing to the fans definitely after the films main story has ended but I think pretty harmlessly so and inline with the originals.

Aye, this is fair enough.  I hated Rogue One myself, so I don't share your view but my issues with the movie go far beyond that one scene.  I don't want to pee on your chips though, so I'll leave it there.

[greenman]

I mean Vader in A New Hope was always a bit rubbish in terms of fighting as Prowse could barely see what he was doing in a constrictive costume, even the following two films showed him as a lot more effective so you maybe just need to accept it as an inconsistency for the sake of more interesting action scenes.

I think it does highlight just how badly wrong the prequels went action wise though, I mean Maul was one of the few bright spots in Menace and Park was good enough that kung fui lightsabering looked genuinely threatening but after the fights became progressively less and less interesting/dramatic.

[St_Eddie]

I mean Vader in A New Hope was always a bit rubbish in terms of fighting as Prowse could barely see what he was doing in a constrictive costume, even the following two films showed him as a lot more effective so you maybe just need to accept it as an inconsistency for the sake of more interesting action scenes.

I mean, yes, I accept that.  I'm not suggesting that any action scenes in a new Star Wars movie should be like the dated and clunky lightsaber duel between Vader and Obi-Wan in A New Hope.  At the same time, I think that having an incredibly WHIZZ BANG CRASH WALLOP CGI WOOSH WOOSH Vader going to town, in a scene set shortly before his clunky appearance in the original Star Wars is a bit jarring, in terms of continuity, given how closely linked the two movies events are.

I think that my fundamental issue is less to do with how they decided to handle a prequel set shortly before A New Hope and more that they chose to make a prequel set shortly before A New Hope in the first place.  A lot of my issues would be alleviated if only that weren't centered around events from the original trilogy.  There's countless centuries to explore, within an entire galaxy and yet everything keeps on coming back to that same period of time and revolving around those same characters and events.  It's frustrating.

I think it does highlight just how badly wrong the prequels went action wise though, I mean Maul was one of the few bright spots in Menace and Park was good enough that kung fui lightsabering looked genuinely threatening but after the fights became progressively less and less interesting/dramatic.

I absolutely agree with this.  The duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith should be perhaps the greatest and most riveting duel in all of Star Wars, given the stakes and all that has come before.  Instead, it's boring and just goes on and on and on.  Lucas is more interested in showcasing the talents of ILM, then he is engaging the viewer through emotion.  The scene where Luke unleashes anger upon Darth Vader and strikes him down with his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi contains more emotional engagement within the span of 30 seconds, than the entirety of the 15 minute duel at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

Is this directed at me?  When did I ever say that any of that was a continuity issue?

It's not directed at you. It just shows that Luke's look when he's an hologram is clearly intended to be the one that will work the best on Kylo, and he makes other choices in the same direction.

Having said that, whilst we're on the subject of Luke's force projection; why didn't he explain his plan to the resistance prior to confronting Kylo?  Why didn't he tell them that he was buying them time?  Why did he risk them not figuring out what his plan was?  Also, how did he know that there was an exit through the back of the base and that the crystal foxes would lead them to it?

Nothing in this movie makes any sense when you really think about it.  Every single scene is riddled with problems in logic.

Every. Fucking. Star. Wars. Movie. Is. Riddled. With. Problems. In. Logic.

You may have grown up with the original trilogy and overlooked its flaws, but the whole plan at the beginning of ROTJ to save Han just relies on dumb luck. The new and improved Death Star has another huge design flaw. Teddy bears beat elite soldiers. Obi Wan was stupid not to reveal Vader's or Leia's identity to Luke in due time. Chewbacca doesn't get any medal at the Nazi-inspired ceremony, etc.

These are basically fairy tales with lasers instead of metal swords. And I'd say the biggest and most ridiculous thing with Star Wars would be to take it seriously.

Absolutely.  It's still jarring if one watches A New Hope immediately after watching Rogue One though.  They could have just not had the scene of Vader wrecking shit up in the movie (in fact, it was only added via the reshoots).  It's not like this is a documentary.  They didn't have to include that scene.  It exists solely for the purpose of fan service.  That fan service comes at the expense of being able to have the movie join up with the first movie in a more seamless manner.

People would have been confused to get barely there until the ending Vader from the original Star Wars, just like they wouldn't expect John Rambo from First Blood to appear in the next Rambo. For better and worse, people don't care about this kind of continuity. Lucas didn't care either, and you didn't have people going out of ESB and complaining, "I mean, this Vader has changed a lot since the first film, and yet, there's zero explanation about his new status as the Emperor's right robotic arm. There have been three years, but it's still a jarring change."

[St_Eddie]

You may have grown up with the original trilogy and overlooked its flaws, but the whole plan at the beginning of ROTJ to save Han just relies on dumb luck. The new and improved Death Star has another huge design flaw. Teddy bears beat elite soldiers. Obi Wan was stupid not to reveal Vader's or Leia's identity to Luke in due time. Chewbacca doesn't get any medal at the Nazi-inspired ceremony, etc.

I'm aware of those flaws and no, I don't overlook them.  I acknowledge them and they bother me to varying degrees.  However, the original trilogy is not completely plagued by lapses in logic at every turn, to the same degree that The Last Jedi is.  Not even close.  The Last Jedi is one of the most incompetently written movies which I've ever seen.  Furthermore, you can't defend the flaws of one movie by saying "there are flaws in that other movie too".  That does not negate the flaws which are being discussed.  It's merely a deflection to avoid addressing those flaws.

These are basically fairy tales with lasers instead of metal swords. And I'd say the biggest and most ridiculous thing with Star Wars would be to take it seriously.

This is a ridiculous argument to make.  Just because it's a fantasy story, that does not mean that anything goes.  There are established rules.  Any movie within an established universe must abide the rules of said universe.  By your logic, it would be absolutely fine and dandy for the climatic scene of Episode IX to have Rey transform into a space unicorn, shoot rainbows out of her arsehole at Kylo Ren and then bring Batman in to defeat the First Order, all without any kind of explanation.  Nowt wrong with that, it's a fairy tale with lasers instead of metal swords.  Anything goes, right?

As for "taking it seriously", I'm not sure what you mean by that.  Are you suggesting that some films should be watched passively and never questioned?  If so, then what is your criteria for which films are okay to engage your brain for and which should be accepted in an unwavering fashion?  Are only films which deal with tragic real-life events the ones which you take seriously, or does it extend to any film which isn't a fairy tale with lasers instead of metal swords?  Why make any exceptions for certain films?  Why not hold all films up to the same standard of expectation, in terms of the quality of writing, performance, direction and indeed internal logic?

People would have been confused to get barely there until the ending Vader from the original Star Wars, just like they wouldn't expect John Rambo from First Blood to appear in the next Rambo. For better and worse, people don't care about this kind of continuity. Lucas didn't care either, and you didn't have people going out of ESB and complaining, "I mean, this Vader has changed a lot since the first film, and yet, there's zero explanation about his new status as the Emperor's right robotic arm. There have been three years, but it's still a jarring change."

Three years is not the same thing as three hours, days or weeks.  Still, Vader's change between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back is a jarring change.  In hindsight, it's odd and makes little sense to see an Imperial officer talking to Vader like a bitch in A New Hope.  It's an issue which exists.  It doesn't bother me hugely at a subjective level but it is an objective inconsistency between movies.  You can still like something and acknowledge that that thing has objective flaws, even if those flaws don't bother you personally.

[greenman]

I mean, yes, I accept that.  I'm not suggesting that any action scenes in a new Star Wars movie should be like the dated and clunky lightsaber duel between Vader and Obi-Wan in A New Hope.  At the same time, I think that having an incredibly WHIZZ BANG CRASH WALLOP CGI WOOSH WOOSH Vader going to town, in a scene set shortly before his clunky appearance in the original Star Wars is a bit jarring, in terms of continuity, given how closely linked the two movies events are.

I think that my fundamental issue is less to do with how they decided to handle a prequel set shortly before A New Hope and more that they chose to make a prequel set shortly before A New Hope in the first place.  A lot of my issues would be alleviated if only that weren't centered around events from the original trilogy.  There's countless centuries to explore, within an entire galaxy and yet everything keeps on coming back to that same period of time and revolving around those same characters and events.  It's frustrating.

You could argue the difference does make some kind of sense, at the end of Rogue One Vader is chasing Rebels looking to escape with the plans, at the start of New Hope the Rebels seem like they have no escape so no need for Vader to head the attack and make it as quick as possible.

Really I don't consider Rogue One to be a prequel in the sense that its mostly focused on setting up an existing story. I mean yes it covers events before A New Hope but the actual dramatic story it tells is rather more independent both in drama of the main characters and the rebellion itself. I think you could argue the choice of setting makes that easier since it needs to spend less time developing up the details of its setting/stakes.

Actually part of why it feels most like the originals to me is that its more character driven, the prequels, sequels and Solo all end up feeling character there driven too much by plot, Rey as your guide in a Starwars themepark attraction.

I absolutely agree with this.  The duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith should be perhaps the greatest and most riveting duel in all of Star Wars, given the stakes and all that has come before.  Instead, it's boring and just goes on and on and on.  Lucas is more interested in showcasing the talents of ILM, then he is engaging the viewer through emotion.  The scene where Luke unleashes anger upon Darth Vader and strikes him down with his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi contains more emotional engagement within the span of 30 seconds, than the entirety of the 15 minute duel at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Doesn't help of course that the whole relationship between Anakin and Obi Wan never really builds that effectively but previously the whole point of lightsabers was that they were such deadly weapons. Really wushu like fight scenes need someone truly skilled to be carried off as truly intense/dangerous looking, your standard actor is I think much better suited to the kind of brutal showdowns we got with Vader.

[St_Eddie]

You could argue the difference does make some kind of sense, at the end of Rogue One Vader is chasing Rebels looking to escape with the plans, at the start of New Hope the Rebels seem like they have no escape so no need for Vader to head the attack and make it as quick as possible.

Really I don't consider Rogue One to be a prequel in the sense that its mostly focused on setting up an existing story. I mean yes it covers events before A New Hope but the actual dramatic story it tells is rather more independent both in drama of the main characters and the rebellion itself. I think you could argue the choice of setting makes that easier since it needs to spend less time developing up the details of its setting/stakes.

These are all fair points.  That's some good reasoning.

Actually part of why it feels most like the originals to me is that its more character driven, the prequels, sequels and Solo all end up feeling character there driven too much by plot, Rey as your guide in a Starwars themepark attraction.

I agree with your point at large.  However, my biggest problem with Rogue One is that I actually found the characters, which it so strongly chose to focus upon, to be some of the dullest and most two-dimensional characters in all of mainstream cinema.  Horses for courses, mind.  If I actually liked and gave a damn about any of the characters, then I certainly agree that the movie's focus upon them would be a boon.

[mothman]

The duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith should be perhaps the greatest and most riveting duel in all of Star Wars, given the stakes and all that has come before.  Instead, it's boring and just goes on and on and on.  Lucas is more interested in showcasing the talents of ILM, then he is engaging the viewer through emotion.  The scene where Luke unleashes anger upon Darth Vader and strikes him down with his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi contains more emotional engagement within the span of 30 seconds, than the entirety of the 15 minute duel at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Absolutely. But I think the rot started earlier. Well, a whole trilogy earlier of course, but one thing I think they got dead wrong is this: the proper Darth Vader should have killed Mace Windu. Now, it's true SLJ was probably wasted in these films. But what were people expecting him to be like? "Hand me my lightsabre, it's the one with BAD MOTHERFUCKER on it?" Maybe he should have been like that. But he wasn't completely wasted - he kicked ass in ep 2, killing Fett Snr. etc. So you at least felt that when he went to arrest Palpatine, the Jedi were bringing their 'A' game. But that sequence should have been combined with the imbecilic CGI cartoon show that was the Palpatine-Yoda fight, and ended with Windu having to go into hiding; then, at the end of the film, you see the fully-suited Darth Vader track him down and kill him. Quite what happens with Yoda if he doesn't confront Palpatine I don't know, but somehow you have to believe he's better at hiding than Windu.

So instead we get that prolonged CGI scene where Kenobi and Skywalker float around on drones ineffectually swatting at each other with their sabres and mostly looking like they're having a glaring contest. Made all the worse by having the defeated Anakin burst into flames just from proximity to the same lava he had previously hovered over without breaking a sweat. When you contrast the duels at the ends of eps 1 and 3, its almost inconceivable they were directed by the same person.

[greenman]

I agree with your point at large.  However, my biggest problem with Rogue One is that I actually found the characters, which it so strongly chose to focus upon, to be some of the dullest and most two-dimensional characters in all of mainstream cinema.  Horses for courses, mind.  If I actually liked and gave a damn about any of the characters, then I certainly agree that the movie's focus upon them would be a boon.

I found the two lead characters pretty well realised personally but in a rather more subtle fashion than is typical for action blockbusters these days(although not as far from ESB), if your only going on one cinema viewing I'd perhaps give it another chance as I certainly found it grew on me with time.

Helps as well I'd say that Edwards can actually put visuals to some dramatic use rather than as an excuse to throw as much whizz bang CGI as possible at the viewer as we've seen in the prequels and sequels.

[mothman]

What's happening with Edwards, anyway? He's done nothing since R1. It's almost like having the film taken away from him, extensively reshot and edited, the ending changed, has damaged his rep.

[QDRPHNC]

Agree about Rogue One. Got it's problems, but quite a big ahead of all the numbered movies except the originals.

[St_Eddie]

I found the two lead characters pretty well realised personally but in a rather more subtle fashion than is typical for action blockbusters these days(although not as far from ESB), if your only going on one cinema viewing I'd perhaps give it another chance as I certainly found it grew on me with time.

I've rewatched Rogue One twice since seeing the movie upon its initial release, or rather was forced to rewatch it because my friend is a Star Wars nut (wears t-shirts and everything) and he often puts on Star Wars DVDs when I go over his place to hangout.  If anything, I hated it even more on the second and third viewings.  It's just not a movie which I like.  At all.

[Mister Six]

The only great Star Wars film is Empire. Rogue One is probably in second place for competence but is kind of dull. Then maybe A New Hope, which is a collection of great bits and pieces weighed down by some shite direction. Then The Force Awakens. And the rest are all shit.

FACTS.

[Dr Rock]

The OT is better than all the other films put together. FACT.