Star Wars ep IX: The Rise Of Skywalker

[Jerzy Bondov]

Let's just let the alt right have the term Mary Sue. In fact let's give them all of TV Tropes. We'll live.

[Jim Bob]

It clearly isn't though. Loads of shit people use the term "mary sue" in a crummy dimwitted sexist way. The well is poisoned, I avoid the word and there is good reason to be suspicious of its use.

It's like how I don't readily describe myself as an atheist, even though I unambiguously am, because it's been used by too many shitheads as a weird badge of deal-with-it etc.

Well, how do you describe your religious position then?

Whether it's 'Mary Sue' or 'atheist', the terms are a very useful shorthand for when communicating one's views upon something.  What am I supposed to do every time that I want to bring up one of aspects of the sequel trilogy that I didn't care for (i.e. the way in which Rey is portrayed), literally list every single defining trait of a Mary Sue, every single time, even though I could simply say 'Mary Sue' as a shorthand?  It's not my fault if a small vocal minority of bigoted morons use the term as a springboard for misogyny (and it should be noted that said misogyny is never bigots simply saying "Rey is a Mary Sue" - it's them saying actual misogynistic things in addition to that).

The vast majority of people who invoke the trope of a Mary Sue are doing so in good faith and without any kind of misogynistic intent (latent or otherwise).  Nobody ever accuses me of being a misandrist when I criticise a male protagonist for being a Mary Sue, despite me having done just that a fair few times in the past.  99% of the times that I see misogyny in relation to the trope of a Mary Sue, is when offended people shout the word 'MISOGYNY' from the rooftops, simply because someone dared to use the terminology within the correct context against a character who was coincidentally a female.  It's boarding on hysteria at times.

Simply mentioning the trope itself isn't misogynistic.  It's when the term is used within a certain context that issues arise.  If someone doesn't invoke the trope within a misogynistic context, then what's the problem exactly?  Why assume that there's any kind of misogynistic intent behind its use?  If tomorrow, bigots adopted the word 'pigeon' as a springboard to racist hatred in some of their rants, does that mean that suddenly the word should be vetoed by everyone else and that anytime anyone ever says the word pigeon, that they should be branded as a racist?  At that point should we all resort to describing actual pigeons as "grey birds with wings that frequent Trafalgar Square".  That would get old fast.  Just as it would get old to jump through mental hoops to avoid using the term Mary Sue when describing a character with the traits of one.

I shouldn't have to be worried about being perceived as a misogynist when using terminology within the correct context and without a shred of hatred behind it.  I shouldn't be fearful of the reactions of people who aren't educated enough to know what a word means.  That's their problem, quite frankly.  I'm not going to bow down to their ignorance.  If people aren't willing to take context into consideration and instead jump down people's throats for using a term, one which has a very specific and non-hateful definition, then that really is on them.

Over the last 5 years it feels like Hollywood has picked up on the same kind of cheap tokenism that we've seen pushed so hard to politics and the rest of the media, its an effective cover for legit criticism of poor writting and pushes the films themselves as somehow politically significant because they link into this partisan environment rattling the cages of bigots.

Spot on.

Let's just let the alt right have the term Mary Sue. In fact let's give them all of TV Tropes. We'll live.

And that's just it.  That's what this boils down to.  "Let's just give them this word", "let's just give them that word".  I'm sorry, but why are we giving the hateful bigoted morons anything?  They're the minority.  We're the majority.  We get to decide what the definition of a word is, so why would we ever allow them to redefine what a word means and repurpose it for their hateful viewpoints?  If we're going to do that, then we may as well hand over the entirety of the English language whilst we're at it and instead communicate via a series of grunts.  Surely a simpler solution would be for the non-bigots to take note of context and give people the benefit of the doubt and only look down upon those who say and do actual bigoted things.  The definition for what a Mary Sue is already exists.  One need only to look it up.  Any word can be used within a negative context and that's the salient point here; context.

[Jerzy Bondov]

I just don't like labels man

[Jim Bob]

I just don't like labels man

Who's labeling who?  The only labeling that I've seen within this thread is the labeling against people innocently invoking a valid trope as being misogynistic.

[madhair60]

Who's labeling who?  The only labeling that I've seen within this thread is the labeling against people innocently invoking a valid trope as being misogynistic.

The first one to mention misogyny was you, despite the poster you were replying to clarifying that they weren't accusing you of being a misogynist. Then you had a massive go at them for mentioning their interest in fanfiction (labelling them a fanboy, incidentally). Following that it's been a pretty much civil discussion of whether "Mary Sue" as a term has been poisoned by its spurious usage by agenda-pushing cunts. I think we're all good?

[Jim Bob]

The first one to mention misogyny was you, despite the poster you were replying to clarifying that they weren't accusing you of being a misogynist. Then you had a massive go at them for mentioning their interest in fanfiction (labelling them a fanboy, incidentally). Following that it's been a pretty much civil discussion of whether "Mary Sue" as a term has been poisoned by its spurious usage by agenda-pushing cunts. I think we're all good?

My aforementioned post was in response to this comment...

Mary Sue?  Muh-Rey-Sue

I've been in fandom long enough to know that if Rey was Ray there'd be no such talk.

The implication seems perfectly clear to me.  How is that comment not implying that I'm a misogynist?

[madhair60]

Because of the use of "the Mary Sue brigade", "the fandom" and the generally broad angle of the full comment, I'd say:

I have zero time for the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument when Luke could fly a ship perfectly out of nowhere and Anakin is Force Jesus. I have even less time for the contortions the Mary Sue brigade put themselves through proving that Luke has flaws while Rey is perfect he DOES and she IS. I've been in fandom long enough to know that if Rey was Ray there'd be no such talk.

It's a response to what I've been talking about, the way the term has been poisoned. Poirot's even directly clarified they didn't mean that you or anyone specific hate women:

Rolling your eyes and declaring a female character a "Mary Sue" doesn't mean you hate women, it means you roll your eyes at a female character in a traditionally male franchise because there's a lot of background noise (especially now) about "tokenism" and "diversity" and "Strong Female Characters". If you think I'm calling you a woman-hater, that's your hangup.

It's definitely not a nice comment per se but I think it's coming from a broader place than is being characterised? To be honest this is a stupid conversation and I shouldn't have got into it. Saying "Mary Sue" doesn't mean you're a misogynist. That's been established.

[Jim Bob]

Because of the use of "the Mary Sue brigade", "the fandom" and the generally broad angle of the full comment, I'd say:

It's a response to what I've been talking about, the way the term has been poisoned. Poirot's even directly clarified they didn't mean that you or anyone specific hate women:

Okay, but you said that it was myself who first introduced the whole misogyny debate into the conversation, when it evidently wasn't.  I'll grant you that it was myself who first used the actual word 'misogyny', but that was in response to Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse bringing up the topic.

It's definitely not a nice comment per se but I think it's coming from a broader place than is being characterised?

No, I don't think that it is at all.  Reread the response in question...

Rolling your eyes and declaring a female character a "Mary Sue" doesn't mean you hate women, it means you roll your eyes at a female character in a traditionally male franchise because there's a lot of background noise (especially now) about "tokenism" and "diversity" and "Strong Female Characters".

That's a comment saying "okay, so maybe you're not a misogynist for using the term Mary Sue, but it does mean that you take umbrage with diversity and strong female protagonists being shoehorned into a Star Wars movie and you have a bug up your arse about the whole woke culture movement".  There's simply no other reasonable way of interpreting that sentence, surely?

[madhair60]

Let's all just agree that TV Tropes can get in a fire and move on

[Jim Bob]

Let's all just agree that TV Tropes can get in a fire and move on

S'hant!  I like TV Tropes.  It's one of my go-to sites for when I've finished watching a film (more specifically, the YMMV and Headscratchers sub-sections). 

[madhair60]

Okay, then let's just agree that Rise of Skywalker was shit. I want this to end on a positive note.

Also, if I'm being honest, I have TV Tropes tabs open right now.

[Jerzy Bondov]

This is going to sound glib and unfair but TV Tropes is to media what Ed Kemper was to women. I will not be following up on this tasteless comment if challenged.

[madhair60]

It makes me so angry sometimes, TV Tropes, it's so often a reductive, banal website. And yet it's also more often than not interesting and enlightening. Ah, shades of grey.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Kemper was well spoken and very tall so he had his good points too.

[evilcommiedictator]

I farted

[idunnosomename]

I farted

[Monsieur Verdoux]

TV Tropes is cancer and it's a site for category fetishists who hate and fear art

[FredNurke]

Marry me.

[madhair60]

TV Tropes is cancer and it's a site for category fetishists who hate and fear art

While this is true,

[Chollis]

sigh. just like the Ghostbusters thread, another 70+ pager ruined by the misogynists

[idunnosomename]

They should make a star wars anime

[Jim Bob]

They should make a star wars anime

The Sarlacc Pitt would be well suited for the hentai treatment.

[Dex Sawash]

Rey=magical negro?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Oh, my goodness.

I'm so glad my willpower is shit and I finally decided to check this thread again. Jim Bob mate that is the most hysterical meltdown I've ever provoked and I wasn't even trying. Tell the truth now, was it just your undies or did your trousers and shirt have to go in the bin too?

The juxtaposition of your colossal offence at even the suggestion that some (I was using the general "you", you idiot) folks might have unexamined biases against female characters with your need to shit on transformative fandom (which typically skews female) from a height was delightful. But my favourite part was how you were so blinded by indignant rage that you forgot I said that Reylo is a young woman's fantasy and I'm too old and world-weary to believe it. Instead you assume I'm some dumb bitch Reylo shipper because I've been writing fanfic for 20 years. I've actually never written any Star Wars fanfic - the movies are pretty self-contained and I never felt the need to add to them. Here I was beating myself up for not simply quoting you and replacing your screed with Old Man Yells At Cloud, when you rewarded me with a truly wonderful tantrum. Thank you. It warms my dead garlic-filled veins.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Get a room, you two.

[Chollis]

set phrasers to frag!

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Get a room, you two.

I've had my fun, and that's all that matters.

[Jim Bob]

Oh, my goodness.

I'm so glad my willpower is shit and I finally decided to check this thread again. Jim Bob mate that is the most hysterical meltdown I've ever provoked and I wasn't even trying. Tell the truth now, was it just your undies or did your trousers and shirt have to go in the bin too?

The juxtaposition of your colossal offence at even the suggestion that some (I was using the general "you", you idiot) folks might have unexamined biases against female characters with your need to shit on transformative fandom (which typically skews female) from a height was delightful. But my favourite part was how you were so blinded by indignant rage that you forgot I said that Reylo is a young woman's fantasy and I'm too old and world-weary to believe it. Instead you assume I'm some dumb bitch Reylo shipper because I've been writing fanfic for 20 years. I've actually never written any Star Wars fanfic - the movies are pretty self-contained and I never felt the need to add to them. Here I was beating myself up for not simply quoting you and replacing your screed with Old Man Yells At Cloud, when you rewarded me with a truly wonderful tantrum. Thank you. It warms my dead garlic-filled veins.

My pleasure.

[Fry]

Rewatched TLJ the other day. Still reckon it's the 3rd best star wars film.

[madhair60]

It's definitely the best Star Wars film.