Star Wars ep IX: The Rise Of Skywalker

[St_Eddie]

Didn't people already lose hope in good new Star Wars films 20 years ago?  Why is there a trend now of saying that Disney invented Shit Star Wars?

Oh, dear God, no!  I would never suggest that!  Even before the prequels, there was The Holiday Special and the Ewok movies.  You're quite right, Replies; the prequels killed general audience's faith in the series.  However, when Disney acquired Lucasfilm and announced a sequel trilogy, the general feeling among people, myself included, was that this was a golden opportunity to make good Star Wars movies again.  Cut to a few years later and my faith, and a lot of other people's faith, in the handlers of the series is even worse than it was during the prequels.

[bgmnts]

Whats troubling is that Force Awakens was just a committee written, carbon copy of A New Hope but they scribbled out Luke Skywalker and wrote Rey there. People were okay with that but i think it came under criticism for being a carbon copy.

So for the Last Jedi they did the total opposite and gave it to one guy with one vision (one real decision) and it was Star Wars: Subverting Expectations, which was pretty decisive and trust in the franchise waned.

So now what do they do? Give it another go with a proper director and writer or just another carbon(ite) copy. Considering they'd be copying Return of the Jedi, the weakest of the first three for me, it could be very shit.


What this franchise really needs is a buddy cop film, maybe partner Jedi? "I don't care how you did it on Coruscant, here on Dantooine we do it by the book! You better catch this bantha rustler within the next three days or i'll have your lightsabers, the masters are up my ass on this one" Etc etc.

[Piggyoioi]

Rey's going to go back in time and be Anakins mother, and then we get a remake of the original trilogy ad nauseam untill we gleefully rejoice in global thermonuclear war.

[greenman]

If the Force Awakens were just a copy of A New Hope it would be a far better film than it is, really its the same self aware nostalgia formula as his Trek films but with Starwars as the fuel. At least his first Trek film had a good deal of personality to it though which is largely absent here.

The Last Jedi inherits the same kind of crackhead writing just throwing nonsensical plot points and bad snarky humour along with action/nostalgia at the audience so quickly it hopes they don't notice how bad the result is.

[Piggyoioi]

If the Force Awakens were just a copy of A New Hope it would be a far better film than it is, really its the same self aware nostalgia formula as his Trek films but with Starwars as the fuel. At least his first Trek film had a good deal of personality to it though which is largely absent here.

The Last Jedi inherits the same kind of crackhead writing just throwing nonsensical plot points and bad snarky humour along with action/nostalgia at the audience so quickly it hopes they don't notice how bad the result is.

Yeah, directors need to know their limits, or at least producers should be there to reign them im. JJ, fine, cast the movie and direct it, but seriously, you write finales even less satisfying than a regretful facebook wank.

[St_Eddie]

If the Force Awakens were just a copy of A New Hope it would be a far better film than it is, really its the same self aware nostalgia formula as his Trek films but with Starwars as the fuel. At least his first Trek film had a good deal of personality to it though which is largely absent here.

The Last Jedi inherits the same kind of crackhead writing just throwing nonsensical plot points and bad snarky humour along with action/nostalgia at the audience so quickly it hopes they don't notice how bad the result is.

Spot on.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

What are the nonsensical plot points in TLJ? The Finn sideplot is a little weak but then again Star Wars has always been fairly soft scifi that requires a heavy suspension of disbelief. (I mean sit down and think about the plot of ROTJ for a minute...)

Phantom Menace and Last Jedi are my favourites because they have the most interesting plots and set pieces. (Is it still a set piece if it's all made in a computer?)

[St_Eddie]

What are the nonsensical plot points in TLJ?

I would list them but it would takes ages for me to go through them all (in fact, it would take several paragraphs just to list the major ones).  Literally not a single scene goes by without plot issues.  There are many videos on YouTube covering them in detail, so I'd suggest looking towards them if you're curious.

To guide you in the right direction, MauLer's multi-part 'A Critique of Star Wars: The Last Jedi' is an incredible and enlightening critique of the movie's many and sundry issues.  It goes through the movie scene-by-scene and is over 5 hours long (I know, I know but that's what it takes to dismantle the awful script and do a critique of it justice, similar to Plinkett's take down of the prequels - I suggest doing what I did and watching 30 mins or so of the critique everyday, to make it more easily digestible).  It really does cover it all; the character issues, the plot holes and the questionable decisions in general; the whole nine yards.

[bgmnts]

Honestly the only thing I thought was a good idea was the Benicio Del Toro character (i'm a big mark for del Toro I will say) because its great to actually have a character who is neither really good nor evil in a Star Wars film. He betrays the protagonists and fucks off out of the story, no Han Solo "whoooooo" moment of redemption, no comeuppance. Just buggers off stuttering with his money.

I would like for him to return in this last one because I actually think he brings a good concept to the Star Wars universe. Although to be honest seeing Benicio del Toro in a Star Wars film is a bit weird.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Honestly the only thing I thought was a good idea was the Benicio Del Toro character (i'm a big mark for del Toro I will say) because its great to actually have a character who is neither really good nor evil in a Star Wars film.

[tag] Boba Fett leaves thread in disgust and jetpacks straight into sarlaac pit [/tag]

[St_Eddie]

Honestly the only thing I thought was a good idea was the Benicio Del Toro character (i'm a big mark for del Toro I will say) because its great to actually have a character who is neither really good nor evil in a Star Wars film. He betrays the protagonists and fucks off out of the story, no Han Solo "whoooooo" moment of redemption, no comeuppance. Just buggers off stuttering with his money.

I would like for him to return in this last one because I actually think he brings a good concept to the Star Wars universe. Although to be honest seeing Benicio del Toro in a Star Wars film is a bit weird.

I didn't care much for his stutter but I agree that the character was an interesting one.

[bgmnts]

[tag] Boba Fett leaves thread in disgust and jetpacks straight into sarlaac pit [/tag]

Boba Fett is basically just an ace costume design. We dont really know anything about him beyond the fact he is a possibly overzealous bounty hunter ("no disintergrations") and he comes across as a bit of a baddie. All the bounty hunters do.

[Shaky]

Not getting at you, Eddie, but I find that multi-part critique unwatchable and about 1,000 times more maddening than the dodgier parts of The Last Jedi. That voice, those inflections, the self-satisfaction... Jesus. I know it's not a new thing but it's an element of modern geekdom which baffles me in general. Life's far too short to put oneself through that shit, even if some good points are made.

[St_Eddie]

Not getting at you, Eddie, but I find that multi-part critique unwatchable and about 1,000 times more maddening than the dodgier parts of The Last Jedi. That voice, those inflections, the self-satisfaction... Jesus. I know it's not a new thing but it's an element of modern geekdom which baffles me in general. Life's far too short to put oneself through that shit, even if some good points are made.

That's a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but as you suggest, your own personal annoyance at his voice does not negate the criticisms which he raises.  Pearly-Dewdrops Drops asked for someone to layout the plot issues of The Last Jedi and so I pointed him/her in the direction of the most comprehensive source of explanation that I am aware of.

On the subject of whether delving deeply into criticism and deconstructing scripts to see preciously why they either fail or succeed is a worthwhile endeavour or not; well, that depends entirely upon an individual's interests.  You may personally consider life to be too short for such things and that's cool, as I'm sure that you have your own interests which you would much rather give your time to but other people (myself included) live and breath films and the filmmaking process and as such, naturally find a thorough and thoughtful critique of a film to be endlessly fascinating.

EDIT: Not that I'm implying that you were suggesting that I personally shouldn't be watching such videos.  I just thought I'd try to explain as to why I do enjoy watching them, given that you said that you find such things to be baffling.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

That's a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but as you suggest, your own personal annoyance at his voice does not negate the criticisms which he raises.  Pearly-Dewdrops Drops asked for someone to layout the plot issues of The Last Jedi and so I pointed him/her in the direction of the most comprehensive source of explanation that I am aware of.

On the subject of whether delving deeply into criticism and deconstructing scripts to see preciously why they either fail or succeed is a worthwhile endeavour or not; well, that depends entirely upon an individual's interests.  You may personally consider life to be too short for such things and that's cool, as I'm sure that you have your own interests which you would much rather give your time to but other people (myself included) live and breath films and the filmmaking process and as such, naturally find a thorough and thoughtful critique of a film to be endlessly fascinating.

Well I haven't watched the 8 hour video but I can already tell you that most of the guy's criticisms are going to be nitpicking things he did not like (or understand) rather than genuine problems with the script, much like the Red Letter Media takedowns of Episode I. These types of scene-by-scene scrutinizing are almost always disingenuous because you could do the same thing to almost every movie (at least every mainstream action blockbuster) ever made.

I could easily make a multi-hour video explaining why the original trilogy is shit and makes no logical sense, but it wouldn't really be true, because the original trilogy is not shit despite making no sense.

[St_Eddie]

Well I haven't watched the 8 hour video but I can already tell you that most of the guy's criticisms are going to be nitpicking things he did not like (or understand) rather than genuine problems with the script, much like the Red Letter Media takedowns of Episode I.

Yes, some of the points which he raises are definitely nitpicks (and he admits as much, whenever he raises one) but he also covers some huge plot issues, which are anything but nitpicks but rather, major and fundamental problems within the story; actual, proper, good old-fashioned plotholes.  Huge, gaping ones at that.

These types of scene-by-scene scrutinizing are almost always disingenuous because you could do the same thing to almost every movie (at least every mainstream action blockbuster) ever made.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  There's flaws in every movie and so, it therefore somehow follows that film criticism is invalid and all movies are of an equal quality and standard?  Or that film criticism can only be applied to a movie in a general sense, as a whole and not to individual scenes?  Whatever the case, your logic is deeply flawed.

I could easily make a multi-hour video explaining why the original trilogy is shit and makes no logical sense, but it wouldn't really be true, because the original trilogy is not shit despite making no sense.

We're not talking about the original trilogy, which yes, does have its own host of objective problems - though nowhere near to the same level as The Last Jedi, it must be said.  Referring back to the original trilogy and saying "well, that had problems too" does not negate criticism of The Last Jedi itself.  You can't say "movie A had flaws and therefore any movie before or since cannot be criticised".  You're using a classic deflection technique because you'd rather not engage with the objective problems of a movie which you subjectively enjoyed.  It wouldn't really be of any concern to me, were it not for the fact that you're the one who asked what the plot issues with The Last Jedi were, prompting me to provide you with a source.  If you had no interest in hearing or even entertaining an explanation of the issues, then I have to wonder why exactly you asked for one in the first place?

[Mister Six]

What are the nonsensical plot points in TLJ?

Well the whole film is predicated on the idea that the New Order or whatever they're called are now in charge of the galaxy after blowing up the space UN. How does that work, exactly? Why haven't all the other planets just told them to fuck off? Why is Leia's government now a few hundred "Resistance" fighters on a single spaceship? How did the New Order manage to invade and dominate enough planets to become a new Empire?

And then it turns out at the end that all the baddies are on the one big spaceship following the goodies' big spaceship. So is this "war" actually just the galactic equivalent of a punch-up in a pub car park?  Nobody on gamble planet seems to know or care what's going on, and clearly Leia's glorious reign did piss all for the poor kids there.

This is one of the most frustrating things about the new trilogy - there's a great opportunity to explore the idea of the baddies as rebel underdogs. Who wants to bring the Empire back, and why? Why would anyone who isn't that mangled-looking cunt want to revive an authoritarian regime that promotes lunatics like Kylo Ren? What if Leia's restored Galactic Senate struggled to fix anything? What if the baddies have a legitimate point?

But it all gets pissed away because they were so desperate to recreate the original trilogy that they forced the new status quo into a mould that would never fit it. And TLJ plays a massive part in that.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Well the whole film is predicated on the idea that the New Order or whatever they're called are now in charge of the galaxy after blowing up the space UN. How does that work, exactly? Why haven't all the other planets just told them to fuck off? Why is Leia's government now a few hundred "Resistance" fighters on a single spaceship? How did the New Order manage to invade and dominate enough planets to become a new Empire?

And then it turns out at the end that all the baddies are on the one big spaceship following the goodies' big spaceship. So is this "war" actually just the galactic equivalent of a punch-up in a pub car park?  Nobody on gamble planet seems to know or care what's going on, and clearly Leia's glorious reign did piss all for the poor kids there.

This is one of the most frustrating things about the new trilogy - there's a great opportunity to explore the idea of the baddies as rebel underdogs. Who wants to bring the Empire back, and why? Why would anyone who isn't that mangled-looking cunt want to revive an authoritarian regime that promotes lunatics like Kylo Ren? What if Leia's restored Galactic Senate struggled to fix anything? What if the baddies have a legitimate point?

But it all gets pissed away because they were so desperate to recreate the original trilogy that they forced the new status quo into a mould that would never fit it. And TLJ plays a massive part in that.

Basically everything you've said (which I don't think is entirely accurate plotwise in any event) was established in TFA rather than TLJ. TLJ has a very interesting scene explaining that the people on the casino planet very much are aware of what's going on because they profit off the endless war between the Empire/First Order and the Rebellion/Resistance, which does directly call into question the morality of some of what the Rebellion/Resistance does. As does Poe's reckless hero maneuver that needlessly gets people killed.

TLJ does more than any other Star Wars movie you're ever going to see to explore the very complexities you've mentioned. Of course it is all going out the window when JJ Abrams figures out what the new ewoks are going to be and how to clone ROTJ scene for scene.

What if Leia's restored Galactic Senate struggled to fix anything?

Hence the Luke storyline that everybody in the world got mad at.

[checkoutgirl]

Basically everything you've said (which I don't think is entirely accurate plotwise in any event) was established in TFA rather than TLJ. TLJ has a very interesting scene explaining that the people on the casino planet very much are aware of what's going on because they profit off the endless war between the Empire/First Order and the Rebellion/Resistance, which does directly call into question the morality of some of what the Rebellion/Resistance does. As does Poe's reckless hero maneuver that needlessly gets people killed.

I'm loving this. I don't know if it's true or not because I haven't watched or analysed these films enough but loving it anyway.

[Norton Canes]

5, 6, 4, 7, 1, 3, 2, 8

1 (Star Wars). It's good. I like it. The end.

[Ferris]

The Phantom Menace Was Alright.

[SteveDave]

Rey's going to go back in time and be Anakins mother

With big nose as his Dad! Boom! We're so good at MOVIE'S.

[St_Eddie]

Basically everything you've said (which I don't think is entirely accurate plotwise in any event) was established in TFA rather than TLJ.

Very well, I'll lay out the plot issues within a single scene in The Last Jedi, in order to demonstrate just how badly written the movie is.  The scene I'll cover is the battle of Crait...

Finn is piloting his ship towards the cannon, intending to ram into it, sacrificing himself and saving the resistance from obliteration.  Rose then rams into him, in order to stop him.  First problem; the scene had already established that Rose was piloting the same model of ship and was significantly further behind Finn (who was going full speed, in a straight line, towards the cannon), so how was she suddenly able to be alongside him, in order to crash into him?

Second problem, she tells Finn that she stopped him because they'll win by "not fighting what we hate but saving what we love".  Um, what?  How did she know that crashing into Finn's ship at full speed wouldn't have killed him and/or herself in the process?  Secondly, Finn was attempting to save the ones he loved, via a noble sacrifice.  By ramming Finn and stopping his suicide run, the First Order is now primed to use the cannon to gain access to the base and wipe out the resistance.  She doesn't know that Luke is going to show up and that there's a secret way out of the base, through the back.  She may as well have condemned them all to death.  As she kisses Finn (which comes out of nowhere. These two have known each other for less than 24 hours and she 'loves' him?), we see the cannon blasting through the door of the base behind them with a big explosion.  What a beautiful image for just how fucked up Rose's message is.  Although the movie apparently wants us to side with Rose's absolutely nonsensical, fortune cookie twaddle.

Shortly after Rose kisses Finn, she falls unconscious.  Moments later Finn arrives at the entrance to the base, dragging Rose.  This is a MAJOR plothole.  How did he manage to drag her back to the base, across the battlefield, with dozens of First Order walkers watching over them?  In the movie, it takes the resistance a good 4-5 minutes to pilot their ships from the base to the walkers (where Rose and Finn eventually crash).  That's 4-5 minutes for a ship going full pelt.  Just look at the length of the battlefield!  It would literally take at least an hour to walk across that battlefield and back to the base.  Now imagine doing so, whilst dragging a human being (Rose no less, who, let's face it, isn't exactly skinny - and dragging a skinny adult is fucking hard work in of itself).  That would literally take several hours.  Now imagine doing this whilst the First Order are watching you slowly dragging your companion across the battlefield.  Yet, they don't open fire and kill them, why exactly?  But never mind any of this because the movie handwaves it all away and Finn is shown to arrive with the unconscious Rose at the base, mere minutes after they'd crashed.  This makes no sense whatsoever.  There is no explanation.  It's a huge, great big gaping plothole, in a movie full of huge, great big gaping plotholes.

Luke then turns up as a force projection, in order to distract the First Order whilst the resistance locates the exit at the back of the base.  Why does Luke presume that the resistance will be able to figure out that he's creating a distraction?  Why didn't he tell them first and then go to face the First Order?  How did Luke know that there was a hidden exit at the back of the base?  These aren't mere nitpicks.  This is bad writing.  These are problems within the plot which present themselves if one engages their brain whilst watching, as opposed to just sitting there, unthinkingly and allowing the movie to wash over them.

Rey then uses the force to lift up a cluster of massive boulders to clear the path for the resistance to exit.  How did Rey know that the resistance were on the other side of those boulders and how did she know where to find them in the first place?  More importantly, how is this character, who only just learned about the force two days ago (The Last Jedi takes place immediately after The Force Awakens, don't forget) able to display force abilities far greater then anything we've ever seen in a Star Wars film prior to this?  With no training?  This makes no sense.

That's just a single scene from the movie.  The whole damn movie is like this!  The script is objectively badly written.  That doesn't mean that you can't subjectively enjoy the movie.  That doesn't mean that the objective issues have to personally bother you because they don't have to.  If you're not bothered by them, then that's great.  More power to you.  I'm glad that you enjoy the movie but that doesn't mean that the objective issues aren't there because they absolutely are.  The Last Jedi is a badly written and incoherent movie.  Rian Johnson has even said that he filmed his first draft.  His first draft!  When he said that, suddenly a lot of things fell into place.

[QDRPHNC]

For me, the one element that encapsulates everything stupid about TLJ is the fact that on every conceivable level, it would have been better for Leia to be in the one to sacrifice herself by hyperspacing into the baddies. Instead, Leia saves herself from certain death in a scene that people were openly laughing at, and the big emotional sacrifice is left to a character we've just been introduced to, with no discernible personality and no backstory, who we don't particularly care about.

Utterly inept storytelling.

And regarding St_Eddie's post above, yes. I remember sitting in the theatre during that scene thinking, this doesn't make any sense.

Like, I understand the levers the movie is trying to pull, it just fails. And not in a "well, they took a big risk and failed, but you can respect it" sort of way. More like "why on earth what you do that? That's stupid" way.

[St_Eddie]

...the big emotional sacrifice is left to a character we've just been introduced to, with no discernible personality...

Her personality is purple hair.  I wonder if the carpet matches the drapes...

[bgmnts]

For me, the one element that encapsulates everything stupid about TLJ is the fact that on every conceivable level, it would have been better for Leia to be in the one to sacrifice herself by hyperspacing into the baddies. Instead, Leia saves herself from certain death in a scene that people were openly laughing at, and the big emotional sacrifice is left to a character we've just been introduced to, with no discernible personality and no backstory, who we don't particularly care about.

Utterly inept storytelling.

My guess is people would expect that and Rian Johnson wanted to subvert expectations.

Or it was the death of Carrie Fisher that messed that up?

Or they thought losing another proper Star Wars character would be too much. Han Solo in the first one then Leia in the second. Too much for people maybe?

[Mister Six]

Basically everything you've said (which I don't think is entirely accurate plotwise in any event) was established in TFA rather than TLJ.

Nope, the New Order flips from being a hitherto barely recognised uprising into a galaxy-dominating super force between TFA and TLJ. Likewise Leia's force being whittled down to a handful of incompetents on a space ferry.

It's wank.

[Kelvin]

Nope, the New Order flips from being a hitherto barely recognised uprising into a galaxy-dominating super force between TFA and TLJ. Likewise Leia's force being whittled down to a handful of incompetents on a space ferry.

It's wank.

It is wank  but the actual explanation for the stupidly fast ascension of the First Order has been established since Force Awakens in the expanded universe, I believe.

The entire Galaxy was demilitarized after the Empire fell, and Leia is one of the few people who sees a need for some line of defence against new threats. When the First Order returns, Leia is given almost no government support, and what she gets,  she uses to create the Resistance.

When the central government is destroyed, no other planets have sufficient military to fight off the First Order and only Leia's small, poorly funded force remains.

A stupid explanation, yes. But it does exist and has been in place since Force Awakens, rather than being a fault specifically with Last Jedi.

[Piggyoioi]

It is wank  but the actual explanation for the stupidly fast ascension of the First Order has been established since Force Awakens in the expanded universe, I believe.

The entire Galaxy was demilitarized after the Empire fell, and Leia is one of the few people who sees a need for some line of defence against new threats. When the First Order returns, Leia is given almost no government support, and what she gets,  she uses to create the Resistance.

When the central government is destroyed, no other planets have sufficient military to fight off the First Order and only Leia's small, poorly funded force remains.

A stupid explanation, yes. But it does exist and has been in place since Force Awakens, rather than being a fault specifically with Last Jedi.

Ah, this might of been helped if they didnt use the exact same design language of the Empire.

[greenman]

The entire Holdo plot were she doesn't reveal her plan even in the face of munity seems like a pretty massive plot hole.

The general style of these films is they must be throwing something in your face every few mins, if that means plot twists that make no sense then so be it, the pace must be kept up at all costs lest the audience actually have time to think.