Star Wars ep IX: The Rise Of Skywalker

[St_Eddie]

It is wank  but the actual explanation for the stupidly fast ascension of the First Order has been established since Force Awakens in the expanded universe, I believe.

The entire Galaxy was demilitarized after the Empire fell, and Leia is one of the few people who sees a need for some line of defence against new threats. When the First Order returns, Leia is given almost no government support, and what she gets,  she uses to create the Resistance.

When the central government is destroyed, no other planets have sufficient military to fight off the First Order and only Leia's small, poorly funded force remains.A stupid explanation, yes. But it does exist and has been in place since Force Awakens, rather than being a fault specifically with Last Jedi.

Was that in one of the many expanded universe books which one needs to read, in order to understand what the fuck is going on in these terrible movies?

The entire Holdo plot were she doesn't reveal her plan even in the face of munity seems like a pretty massive plot hole.

It's atrocious.  Aside from anything else, it's appalling military leadership (her attitude and decisions go against every rule of military strategy here on Earth.  She's like a rule 101 on what NOT to do) and yet we're supposed to agree with Holdo because... reasons?  Because she has purple hair?  Because she's a woman?  Fucked if I know.  Poe was right to start a mutiny against such an incompetent leader.  Personally, I would have gone one extra and blown her out of a friggin' airlock.

(NOT SO) FUN FACT: Rian Johnson purposefully filmed the scene of Laura Dern (Holdo) slapping Oscar Isaac (Poe) 30 TIMES over.  For fun.  Because violence is funny, folks.  Just as long it's women inflicting it against men, it's a-okay!  Imagine the furore were the gender roles reversed.  That, my friends, is what we call hypocrisy.  Rian Johnson is #Cancelled in my eyes and not just because The Last Jedi was a steaming pile of horseshit, but because he's a fucking cunt too.

[Ferris]

The entire Holdo plot were she doesn't reveal her plan even in the face of munity seems like a pretty massive plot hole.

The general style of these films is they must be throwing something in your face every few mins, if that means plot twists that make no sense then so be it, the pace must be kept up at all costs lest the audience actually have time to think.

Yeah this seemed a bit mad to me and all.

Just let everyone know "this is what we're doing, don't worry, I'm not just cruising about aimlessly waiting for us all to die (even though that is what it looks like I'm doing, and for some reason the film also presents me as looking a bit lost and useless)."

Then the turnaround is "aha! You have to listen to your boss even if you don't agree with them, and they don't tell you anything, and all available evidence points to them being incompetent and about to slowly (but surely) doom you all - remember, respect authority and vote centrist"

[Blumf]

Plus her actual plan was shit anyway.

[St_Eddie]

Yeah this seemed a bit mad to me and all.

Just let everyone know "this is what we're doing, don't worry, I'm not just cruising about aimlessly waiting for us all to die (even though that is what it looks like I'm doing, and for some reason the film also presents me as looking a bit lost and useless)."

Then the turnaround is "aha! You have to listen to your boss even if you don't agree with them, and they don't tell you anything, and all available evidence points to them being incompetent and about to slowly (but surely) doom you all - remember, respect authority and vote centrist"

The moral of the story is to just blindly follow orders.  If someone is of a higher rank than you, then that automatically means that they're a better person than you and you should do whatever they say.  Don't question, just obey.  Be good little automans.  Star Wars, kids!  How magical!  Preparing you for life.  What a fucking joke!

[popcorn]

Why don't they just make a proper Star Wars film with lightsabers etc.

[phantom_power]

The moral of the story is to just blindly follow orders.  If someone is of a higher rank than you, then that automatically means that they're a better person than you and you should do whatever they say. 

That's pretty much the basic principle of all armed forces everywhere so it's hardly a great leap to think that space armies have the same idea. Our opinion on this is skewed because Poe is a hero and we know his motivation but the leaders shouldn't have to answer questions from every soldier who is a bit unsure of what they are doing or nothing would ever get done

[Blumf]

That's pretty much the basic principle of all armed forces everywhere so it's hardly a great leap to think that space armies have the same idea. Our opinion on this is skewed because Poe is a hero and we know his motivation but the leaders shouldn't have to answer questions from every soldier who is a bit unsure of what they are doing or nothing would ever get done

Poe isn't just a low level solider though, he's a mid-high rank (very high considering the state of the group) commander who carries the loyalty of a large chuck of what's left of the Resistance's forces. To keep him out of the loop is a massive leadership fail.

[Ferris]

Plus there are about 30 people left alive in the kip, and 28 of them have been loading the escape pods the whole time in line with your one's plan, and the other 2 are the captain and Poe. It seems mad that this super secret plan didn't leak - and knowing the likelihood of leaking, keeping everyone informed that "yes, there is a plan" seems a no brainer.

Anyway, the film itself was a bit silly but essentially ok.

[St_Eddie]

Poe isn't just a low level solider though, he's a mid-high rank (very high considering the state of the group) commander who carries the loyalty of a large chuck of what's left of the Resistance's forces. To keep him out of the loop is a massive leadership fail.

Indeed.  I'll reiterate; Holdo represents the embodiment of what NOT to do in military tactics.  Poe isn't a mere grunt.  He should be kept in the loop.  'How to fuck up in 10 easy steps' ~ A guide by Holdo.  Yet, we're supposed to admire her, why exactly?!  What a fucking joke this movie is.

[phantom_power]

Poe isn't just a low level solider though, he's a mid-high rank (very high considering the state of the group) commander who carries the loyalty of a large chuck of what's left of the Resistance's forces. To keep him out of the loop is a massive leadership fail.

Only because he went off and fucked shit up rather than do his job. Again, the basic tenet of a military organisation is to do what you are told and not ask questions, even more so in a time of war. Her only failing was not predicting that he would be a big crybaby about being rebuked a bit

[Kelvin]

The moral of the story is to just blindly follow orders.  If someone is of a higher rank than you, then that automatically means that they're a better person than you and you should do whatever they say.  Don't question, just obey.  Be good little automans.  Star Wars, kids!  How magical!  Preparing you for life.  What a fucking joke!

This, like lots of these criticisms, is rubbish. The moral is that, when in a position of responsibility, you shouldn't put ego and glory ahead of your team. In the case of Poe, he was leading a team in such a way that it put other people at risk and cost lives. All because he was rightly confident in his own abilities.

It's more about responsibility than "blindly following orders", and there's no undercurrent of higher ranks being "better people". They never question Poe's ability, just his judgement and unwillingness to work at a larger team.

[Blumf]

Only because he went off and fucked shit up rather than do his job.

When did he do that? Are you referring to the start of the film where he was leading a planned operation against the First Order fleet? The one which Leia tries to cancel after the operation was in motion despite the fact that she must have been involved in planning and approving it? Where she then tries to dump blame on her subordinate despite her involvement with planning it? The one where, if they did cancel it, the dreadnought would have easily have destroyed the Resistance's fleet immediately? (and would have done immediately if not for the First Order being as dumb as The Resistance)

That conceptual mess?

[St_Eddie]

This, like lots of these criticisms, is rubbish. The moral is that, when in a position of responsibility, you shouldn't put ego and glory ahead of your team. In the case of Poe, he was leading a team in such a way that it put other people at risk and cost lives. All because he was rightly confident in his own abilities.

It's more about responsibility than "blindly following orders", and there's no undercurrent of higher ranks being "better people". They never question Poe's ability, just his judgement and unwillingness to work at a larger team.

I vehemently disagree.  Poe's actions quite literally saved their lives and he got slapped in the face for it (30 times over, no less).

[bgmnts]

I vehemently disagree.  Poe's actions quite literally saved their lives and he got slapped in the face for it (30 times over, no less).

Considering what women go through in the film industry I think Oscar Isaac getting slapped a few times isn't really a big deal.

[St_Eddie]

Considering what women go through in the film industry I think Oscar Isaac getting slapped a few times isn't really a big deal.

Oh dear.  Since when did two wrongs make a right?  Oscar Isaac must suffer for the sins of others!  He's an actor, not Jesus Christ.  Sort it out, mate.

[bgmnts]

You've gotta get the shot just right.

[St_Eddie]

You've gotta get the shot just right.

Oh, please.  Rian Johnson has gone on the record as saying that he did it for the laughs.

[bgmnts]

It is quite funny to be fair to him. He didn't get much right but that is spot on.

[Mister Six]

It's a crap thing to do, but I'm not sure it's worth going MRA on, when there are other, worthier targets for such complaints (see that thread on short blokes getting the piss taken out of them, for example).

[St_Eddie]

It is quite funny to be fair to him. He didn't get much right but that is spot on.

Haha.  Unnecessary violence is funny, just as long as the target is a man. lolz

[St_Eddie]

It's a crap thing to do, but I'm not sure it's worth going MRA on, when there are other, worthier targets for such complaints (see that thread on short blokes getting the piss taken out of them, for example).

It's not all or nothing.  There are degrees.  I'm not going to picket protest it but there's nowt wrong with acknowledging a shitty thing to have done.  One doesn't have a limit on how many shitty things one can comment upon.  Shitty things to have done to another human being = A discerning comment. One needn't reserve their condemnation solely for the likes of Adolf Hitler.

[bgmnts]

How many slaps are acceptable?

[St_Eddie]

How many slaps are acceptable?

Honestly, none (considering that the audience is supposed to sympathise with Holdo), but given that's what the script called for; as many slaps as is necessary to get the take and no more.

[Dex Sawash]

Whole thing would be better without Poe the impossibly skilled fighter pilot. Somebody knock me up a
The Dameron Edit

[St_Eddie]

Whole thing would be better without Poe the impossibly skilled fighter pilot. Somebody knock me up a
The Dameron Edit

On that note, could somebody edit me a black screen?  It would be a vast improvement.  Ta.

[phantom_power]

It's a crap thing to do, but I'm not sure it's worth going MRA on, when there are other, worthier targets for such complaints (see that thread on short blokes getting the piss taken out of them, for example).

It is of course entirely possible that Johnson was just mucking around when he said it, or even that Isaac was absolutely fine with it and it was just some nonsense between friends rather than some sign that Johnson is some sort of badman.

[Shaky]

Yes, I always thought it was obviously a joke... Johnson is tiny, for a start!

Rian, I mean, not my penis.

[St_Eddie]

It is of course entirely possible that Johnson was just mucking around when he said it...

Yes, I always thought it was obviously a joke...

Yeah, it's not like there's video evidence or anything.  Oh, wait!

[mothman]

How many slaps are acceptable?

[Kelvin]

Totally agree with St Eddie about this. It's fucking mad that this is considered excusable just because it happened to a man. Abuse is abuse, and the fact people dismissed or downplayed certain types of abuse is exactly why women were (and are) treated like shit. It is not okay to have an actor hit another actor multiple times just for a joke.