Author Topic: Difficulty in Games [split topic]  (Read 3918 times)

Moribunderast

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Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« on: April 16, 2019, 07:51:42 AM »
I know he’s not to everyone’s tastes (and fair enough!) but Jim Sterling done a video about Sekiro and the difficulty debate that’s stemmed from it. It branches off into talking about many topics other than Sekiro but I thought I’d chuck a link in this thread if anyone was interested. It’s basically the same argument he’s made whenever this discussion comes up and I find it hard to disagree. The only thing I disagree with is that, yes, if I were offered an easier option after hour 10 of the last boss in Sekiro, I would have absolutely taken it. But that’s a temptation that could easily be avoided by locking difficulty choice to a single option before starting your save.

I’m thankful I seem to have avoided any toxic discussion around Sekiro. Everything I’ve read has mostly been players encouraging each other and, yes, venting frustrations. But for the most part it’s seemed like a community where people who’ve “gutten gud” are trying to help others jump certain hurdles.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 11:03:57 AM »
Can’t watch the video at the minute, but I really hate all this “give us an easy difficulty setting” stuff to be honest. I’m a total masochist with games, and love to play on the hardest setting when it’s available. In Ingress, I make my life more difficult by not cheating, whereas most other players have a second or even third account as a mule.

If developers like From want to make their games bastard hard, then they should stick to it. Not everything should be accessible for everyone! And I’m leaving aside accessibility issues here - but I simply balk at people thinking that everything should be suitable for them. No, that’s an entitled attitude, if you can’t play the game the way the designers want it to be played, then it’s simply not for you - and that is completely fine. There are thousands and thousands of other games to play, pick one.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2019, 11:11:30 AM »
Thinking about it, I suppose it just depends on the game, for me. With something like Dark Souls I get so frustrated sometimes but because I'm the one fucking up, because the controls are fine and it all makes sense mechanically, I don't really mind dying a lot. I mean, if I think it's too hard or whatever and there's no difficulty options I'll just sell it back. No skin off my arse.

Just bring back Action Replays and Xploders.

Edit: There's a DLC for Resi 2 Remake out that just unlocks everything no fuss, which I'm probably going to buy because that game boiled my piss and I just want to use the infinite ammo gatling gun. DRRRRRR FUCK OFF ZOMBIES DRRRRRRRRRRR

I wouldn't do it if I liked the game. I'd actually try and get better.

The difficulty and accessibility arguments need to be utterly seperate.

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 11:16:19 AM »
All for diffculty level settings. If I play a game and get bodied out of the gate, I' m more likely to just give up on the game, espcially if its before a point that the games managed to get under my skin. Having different diffculties means you can use the easyer settings to train and "get gud".

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 11:17:20 AM »
Can’t watch the video at the minute, but I really hate all this “give us an easy difficulty setting” stuff to be honest. I’m a total masochist with games, and love to play on the hardest setting when it’s available. In Ingress, I make my life more difficult by not cheating, whereas most other players have a second or even third account as a mule.

If developers like From want to make their games bastard hard, then they should stick to it. Not everything should be accessible for everyone! And I’m leaving aside accessibility issues here - but I simply balk at people thinking that everything should be suitable for them. No, that’s an entitled attitude, if you can’t play the game the way the designers want it to be played, then it’s simply not for you - and that is completely fine. There are thousands and thousands of other games to play, pick one.

Yeah, you’re arguing against a point he doesn’t make there.

I myself couldn’t care less about the issue - just thought it was relevant to the Sekiro discussion. I just don’t really think there’s a single way anyone HAS to play a game - if Sekiro is too hard but the slowed-down modded version allows you to enjoy it, cool. Why should I care? Whyshould anybody? I’m not here to police how people enjoy the fun things in their lives.

EDIT: This sounds more dismissive than I intended. What I'm trying to say (which I think the video articulates well) is that I just don't really see why people care - if difficulty options have no impact on your personal experience, why are they an issue?

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 11:22:54 AM »
I don’t get why people are against easier settings - I feel like I am missing on what looks like an exceptional game because I know it will be too difficult for me. Why should I be precluded from all those gorgeous graphics and great storyline?

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 11:50:56 AM »
I think there's something to be said for the notoriety a game can build; the entire Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro community exists because of that shared experience.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 12:13:07 PM »
I don’t get why people are against easier settings - I feel like I am missing on what looks like an exceptional game because I know it will be too difficult for me. Why should I be precluded from all those gorgeous graphics and great storyline?

Tough shit malco

Moribunderast

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 12:29:39 PM »
I think there's something to be said for the notoriety a game can build; the entire Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro community exists because of that shared experience.

There's definitely something to that but I think it unfortunately gets boiled down by some to thinking the difficulty is the MAIN or ONLY thing that makes a From game, which is so reductive and untrue. I play those games in spite of their steep difficulty because I love the world-building, the lore, the intricate map design, the creature design and the atmosphere they cultivate. From games are the only games that have captured the feeling I got from first playing Silent Hill 2 many years back - the inexorable dread coupled with a compelling world and story that draws you in, deeper and further, despite the fear that every step of exploration brings you closer to the next horror.

The difficulty plays a part in that, sure, but it's not everything.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 12:38:25 PM »
I don’t get why people are against easier settings - I feel like I am missing on what looks like an exceptional game because I know it will be too difficult for me. Why should I be precluded from all those gorgeous graphics and great storyline?

Sekiro didnt have a great storyline.

Without the difficulty setting Sekiro is probably quite a boring and short experience. The difficultiy makes it a good game imo.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 12:45:27 PM »
There's definitely something to that but I think it unfortunately gets boiled down by some to thinking the difficulty is the MAIN or ONLY thing that makes a From game, which is so reductive and untrue. I play those games in spite of their steep difficulty because I love the world-building, the lore, the intricate map design, the creature design and the atmosphere they cultivate. From games are the only games that have captured the feeling I got from first playing Silent Hill 2 many years back - the inexorable dread coupled with a compelling world and story that draws you in, deeper and further, despite the fear that every step of exploration brings you closer to the next horror.

The difficulty plays a part in that, sure, but it's not everything.

But dont you think that the difficulty makes people explore more? If the game was easier and you didnt need the baids etc people might easier rush through the game. Because its so difficult exploring is rewarded and when you start exploring you dont stop because its great. But imo the difficulty forces the player to explore through the beautifully crafted world which they otherwise might have sprinted through.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 12:49:12 PM »
But dont you think that the difficulty makes people explore more? If the game was easier and you didnt need the baids etc people might easier rush through the game. Because its so difficult exploring is rewarded and when you start exploring you dont stop because its great. But imo the difficulty forces the player to explore through the beautifully crafted world which they otherwise might have sprinted through.

I can only speak to my personal experience but From games (and I'm talking more Bloodborne and Souls than Sekiro here) have such intricately-weaved level designs and so much storytelling in the scenery and setting that I would still happily explore no matter what the difficulty. The knowledge that every corner turned could reveal a clobbering death-machine adds to the atmosphere, for sure, but I just think it's way too simplistic (and not giving From any credit really) to boil the games down to "they're good because they're hard."

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2019, 01:06:18 PM »
I played Wolfenstein: The New Colossus recently. There's a game totally spoiled by over the top difficulty. It does give you the option of changing it, but the so called normal mode was a tedious slog of bullet sponge enemies who seem to know where you are at all times. I suppose some argument could be made that it's a vaguely realistic simulation of what fighting super advanced Nazis might be like - i.e. it's no fun.

BeardFaceMan

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2019, 01:28:28 PM »
I don’t get why people are against easier settings - I feel like I am missing on what looks like an exceptional game because I know it will be too difficult for me. Why should I be precluded from all those gorgeous graphics and great storyline?

Because exceptional games dont just contain gorgeous graphics and a great storyline, they have great gameplay too. If thats the bit you dont like, then the game isnt for you. Why should every game be designed just so you can play it? They shouldn't, the same way all books shouldn't be written to suit your reading level.

Kelvin

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2019, 01:31:06 PM »
Can’t watch the video at the minute, but I really hate all this “give us an easy difficulty setting” stuff to be honest. I’m a total masochist with games, and love to play on the hardest setting when it’s available. In Ingress, I make my life more difficult by not cheating, whereas most other players have a second or even third account as a mule.

If developers like From want to make their games bastard hard, then they should stick to it. Not everything should be accessible for everyone! And I’m leaving aside accessibility issues here - but I simply balk at people thinking that everything should be suitable for them. No, that’s an entitled attitude, if you can’t play the game the way the designers want it to be played, then it’s simply not for you - and that is completely fine. There are thousands and thousands of other games to play, pick one.

There is a distinction, though, between cultivating the main game experience to be accessible to more people, and adding additional modes / options that break the game a bit, but make it easier.

The former would obviously compromise the core vision of the creators to an extent, but the latter would be additional to that vision, and I don't see why it should matter in the slightest to either players who want to get the true, intended experience, or creators who wanted that experience to be the default. Literally no-one loses out if it's an extra mode or option you can select. Why deny people the other elements of an experience they would otherwise enjoy?

Kelvin

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 01:40:14 PM »
I'd actually like more Nintendo games to do the opposite. Modes that made certain games like Yoshi and Kirby harder than their default, intended difficulty.

Twed

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 01:46:52 PM »
What is the actual tangible problem with an easy mode, though? I trust myself not to use it (I love the challenge aspect of games, they rarely appeal to me without it) and there's no gain in frustrating people out of playing them. Nobody using easy mode is going to be taken seriously in a competitive setting either, so why not?

samadriel

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 01:51:55 PM »
I don’t get why people are against easier settings - I feel like I am missing on what looks like an exceptional game because I know it will be too difficult for me. Why should I be precluded from all those gorgeous graphics and great storyline?

I think games which show off the arts of game-making are the ones I'm happy to cheat my way through.  I love seeing the character and world design, hearing the music, experiencing a good storyline, and it doesn't add anything to have to grind one boss all night long.  On the other hand, there are, say, fighting games or shmups, where the challenge is the point (apparently this goes for the From titles as well, I haven't played any).  Ideally you get a combination of both rich artistry and rewarding mechanical challenge, like, saaaay... Cuphead?  Metal Slug?  Gunstar Heroes?  Hmm, they're all walking shooters, maybe I just have a soft spot for those.

Basically if I'm playing through something really pretty and clever and I start getting really bored, I'll probably resort to cheats to see what else the developers have made in this game.  Of course, you guys are really talking more about dialing difficulty down than actually cheating, but both things feel kind of similar to me.  I don't usually set difficulties to 'hardest' though, I go for 'normal'/medium wherever possible, as it usually feels less artificial to me than the hardest or easiest settings -- after a certain point, I despise grunts being bullet-sponges in FPSes, for example.  Or, god, those grunts who need two bullets to the head in Splinter Cell Conviction...  It's a stealth game, a headshot IS A KILL.

Twed

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2019, 01:57:27 PM »
What is the actual tangible problem with an easy mode, though? I trust myself not to use it (I love the challenge aspect of games, they rarely appeal to me without it) and there's no gain in frustrating people out of playing them. Nobody using easy mode is going to be taken seriously in a competitive setting either, so why not?
The only thing I can come up with is that the easy modes might dilute the game design and that will start setting expectations. I don't believe that easy mode is going to be the thing that ruins games, though. Pay to play and casual games with grinding as the sole gameplay mechanic are far more harmful.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2019, 01:57:58 PM »
What is the actual tangible problem with an easy mode, though? I trust myself not to use it (I love the challenge aspect of games, they rarely appeal to me without it) and there's no gain in frustrating people out of playing them. Nobody using easy mode is going to be taken seriously in a competitive setting either, so why not?

I think having one difficulty level available is an interesting statement that kinda frames the game in a certain way, like "here is the road you have to cross". I don't object to Easy Mode. But I don't see why everything necessarily needs to have it.

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2019, 02:05:36 PM »
I don’t even bother with From games anymore, my free time is limited and being repeatedly stomped by frustrating enemies isn’t a particularly fun way to spend it. I get why people enjoy those games, but personally I just can’t be arsed. If I was still 16 with tons of free time and the patience to stick at things that are initially challenging then it would be different.

I just wanna have fun basically, and any game that makes me work too hard for it can fuck off. I’ve got plenty of other things to do beyond ticking off another game from the bucket list of titles I’ve completed. There’s a fine line between difficult but rewarding and demoralisingly tough for me. Dark Souls crossed that line way too often.

I know, my loss.

Twed

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 02:07:47 PM »
I think having one difficulty level available is an interesting statement that kinda frames the game in a certain way, like "here is the road you have to cross". I don't object to Easy Mode. But I don't see why everything necessarily needs to have it.
The need is evident in people saying "I cannot enjoy this game without an easy mode". That is undeniably a need, even if it isn't to our tastes.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 02:08:32 PM »
The need is evident in people saying "I cannot enjoy this game without an easy mode". That is undeniably a need, even if it isn't to our tastes.

Then they should include an Easy Mode option that doesn't actually change the content or parameters of the game in any way.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 02:28:15 PM »
Symptomatic of entitled woke society to want the whole world to bend to their every whim. Too bad the whole world ain't BK. You get what you given. Tough shit, y'all ever hear of BLITZ SPIRIT.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2019, 02:43:32 PM »
RRR

Twed

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2019, 02:52:04 PM »
Then they should include an Easy Mode option that doesn't actually change the content or parameters of the game in any way.
Feels a bit like being annoyed by the bumpers at bowling alleys.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2019, 02:55:39 PM »
Oh, I always have those up.

I hold both views simultaneously.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2019, 05:54:51 PM »
It just annoyed me how the whole debate started to conflate easy mode and accessibility, which are two different things, so it's silly to start bringing up accessibility debates with regards to Sekiro when you could do it with any other game.

Admittedly there's some areas where accessibility and making the game easier might cross over, but purely on the area of easy modes, if From don't want to, why should they have to?

Maybe they're the fools and they'd sell even more copies and it wouldn't harm their vision at all, and it's silly when their games offer so much more than "difficult gameplay" but that's ultimately up to them.

A lot of what I've seen is just "I don't have the time to keep getting frustrated on the same bit of game over and over" in which case, just don't then? It's only a stupid fucking video game. play something else it's fine, don't worry about it.

It reminds of the debates about games being too long and not "respecting the players time." You know all that "I can't play this 120 hour JRPG now I have a wife and kids!" What did you expect you twat?


Sin Agog

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2019, 06:05:58 PM »
Early '90s FPS's had the correct solution when they had different difficulty modes, but insulted you more and more personally the easier it got.  'Girlish Maggot Who Hangs Around Saunas in the Hope That He Can Osmose a Drop of Testosterone From the Sweat of Elderly Businessmen & Feel Like a Real Man For a Single Second Mode.'

Twed

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2019, 06:44:29 PM »
It reminds of the debates about games being too long and not "respecting the players time." You know all that "I can't play this 120 hour JRPG now I have a wife and kids!" What did you expect you twat?
Is that the standard scenario? Surely this is for people being able to join in on enjoying the big AAA games everybody is talking about.

I still don't understand the objections to letting some people tweak the settings so they can also enjoy video games. Why does this upset you, a person who does not have to experience it or witness it happening?