Difficulty in Games [split topic]

[chveik]

I don't despise people, and I don't think I'm that smart. Nor am I particularly interested in films. I do like video games though.

apologies for the cuntish tone. time for me to stay off the internet I reckon.

[Moribunderast]

How about if bonfires were more frequently available? How about if you didn't risk losing your souls after death, therefore meaning exploration didn't have the same sense of risk and trepidation?

That'd be shit, I reckon.

One thing they "fixed" for Sekiro which had always been a bugbear of mine in the Souls games was they put bonfires right outside boss areas, so if you failed you were more compelled to just jump straight back in rather than trudge through scenery and the same enemies you'd dispatched countless times before just to get back to the fight you were struggling with. I think that's a great example of compromise and didn't detract from the experience or vision.

EDIT: Also, I recently played and loved the Resident Evil 2 remake and on "Normal" difficulty (which I usually default to for games) you weren't required to carry and manage ink ribbons. The typewriters were still far apart and it could be tense trying to get to them to save progress before dying but it eliminated that extra concern of inventory micro-management and resource use. I found that aided my experience but was also happy to learn that on "Hard" difficulty they DID have ink ribbons, so people who wanted to play it that way could. Again, a solid compromise and I didn't see anyone bashing anyone else for how they chose to play that game.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

How about if bonfires were more frequently available? How about if you didn't risk losing your souls after death, therefore meaning exploration didn't have the same sense of risk and trepidation?

That'd be shit, I reckon.

Hence I didn't suggest them.

[The Boston Crab]

Best bit about all this ever so earnest reasoning and finger pointing? FROM Soft could give a fuck. Ain't happening.

Either git gud or die cryin.

[Moribunderast]

Best bit about all this ever so earnest reasoning and finger pointing? FROM Soft could give a fuck. Ain't happening.

Either git gud or die cryin.

But nobody's demanding From change anything. Who are you arguing against?

[Fry]

The only From game I've played is Dark Souls, but if their approach to the 'curse' system in that game is anything to go by it's hardly like they are always 100% exemplary at juggling difficulty and a sense of reward to create an engaging system without just being obtuse and annoying. People have the right to suggest an easy mode to make these games more fun, it seems weird to act like the developers are always infallible and their vision for the game is always the correct one. Also if people wanna be able to actually see the end of this game they spent 50 quid on without giving up entire evenings on the same boss fair play to them.

Still pissed about having to run back from the depths up to that fucking bell tower.

Then then again from the bottom of that fuckin tree. Cunts.


Loved that game though, adored it. Wouldn't in a million years give up the feeling I had after I finally caned the four kings after a thousand attempts. Conversely, when you get lucky like when I killed Seath first time despite the fact he looked like he could be a really annoying boss. I think he bugged out or something I dunno, but feels great man.

[Twed]

it seems weird to act like the developers are always infallible and their vision for the game is always the correct one.

Yeah. Developers themselves are some of the worst people to gauge a game's difficult. They've put 100s of hours in and know the game mechanics inside out. Games need playtesters for this kind of thing.

[Barry Admin]

Hence I didn't suggest them.

I suppose so, but I'm sure some folks have.

And I think most games do have playtesters.

And I've managed to beat every boss in Dark Souls, although I've still not quite finished the third one.

Developers might not be infallible, but I'd rather have games designed by them, than by whinging members of the public, with absolutely no experience in game design, to be honest.

Oh and notice how you said it'd be great if the bosses didn't take a thousand goes to beat them, whereas Fry mentioned the feeling of satisfaction he had when he finally beat one of them after the same? Maybe these lads do actually know what they're doing after all.

Tweaking a Soulsborne game so that the monsters moved fractionally slower than the speed of sound and bosses could be beaten in twenty goes, rather than a thousand, would have no such effect on the overall experience. The precious artistic vision would still be intact.

Wouldn't in a million years give up the feeling I had after I finally caned the four kings after a thousand attempts.

[Timothy]

I suppose so, but I'm sure some folks have.

And I think most games do have playtesters.

And I've managed to beat every boss in Dark Souls, although I've still not quite finished the third one.

Developers might not be infallible, but I'd rather have games designed by them, than by whinging members of the public, with absolutely no experience in game design, to be honest.

Oh and notice how you said it'd be great if the bosses didn't take a thousand goes to beat them, whereas Fry mentioned the feeling of satisfaction he had when he finally beat one of them after the same? Maybe these lads do actually know what they're doing after all.

But what would change for the gamers like the people in your quotes, for you and for you if they add an easy mode? Not much, because we wouldn't use it.

I don't see the point in being against something you/we/I won't use. The more people that can enjoy these games (even though I'm not sure if you can enjoy Sekiro in an easy mode but that's a different discussion) the better. Maybe some even use it as some sort of training mode to start hard/normal mode after that.

[St_Eddie]

Developers might not be infallible, but I'd rather have games designed by them, than by whinging members of the public, with absolutely no experience in game design, to be honest.

Exactly.  It's similar to test audiences for films.  Sometimes that works out but more often than not, it leads to changes which fly in the face of the artist's intent and a compromised artistic vision.  The unwashed masses are, by and large, clueless.  If it were up to them, then Romeo and Juliet would have had a happily-ever-after ending and a wisecracking squirrel as comic relief.  I don't want artists to create or alter their works based upon what Keith from down the pub reckons would be best.

If a game developer wants to include multiple difficulty options and does so as a part of their game design from conception, then I back that 100%.  What I don't support is the consumer demanding that a developer change their vision, based upon their own personal interpretation of what the game should be, or because they don't want to accept the challenge as laid out by the developer.

[Timothy]

If a game developer wants to include multiple difficulty options and does so as a part of their game design from conception, then I back that 100%.  What I don't support is the consumer demanding that a developer change their vision, according to what their interpretation of what the game should be.

Why not? When it comes to Sekiro there is nothing wrong with an easy mode, as the Youtube video in the OP pointed out. What did you think of the arguments in the video?

[St_Eddie]

Why not? When it comes to Sekiro there is nothing wrong with an easy mode, as the Youtube video in the OP pointed out. What did you think of the arguments in the video?

I haven't played Sekiro (in actuality, I know absolutely nothing about it), nor have I watched the video.  Note that this is a split topic.  I wasn't a part of the conversation prior to the topic splitting off from the Sekiro thread.  I'm addressing the central point of consumers dictating difficulty in games in general and to a larger point, consumers dictating the content of any kind of artistic creation.

[Moribunderast]

I haven't played Sekiro (in actuality, I know absolutely nothing about it), nor have I watched the video.  Note that this is a split topic.  I wasn't a part of the conversation prior to the topic splitting off from the Sekiro thread.  I'm addressing the central point of consumers dictating difficulty in games in general and at a larger point, consumers dictating the content of any kind of artistic creation.

See, this is what's frustrating me in this thread. The video I posted in the OP does not argue for consumers dictating difficulty, nor dictating what an artist can do. It argues quite the opposite. And yet many in the thread are arguing as if that's what is being said. I can only assume those arguing along those lines have seen people elsewhere actually demanding easy modes and they are arguing against that - but that has nothing to do with the video I posted so it's annoying seeing that same point trotted out.

And nobody has explained yet how the existence of an easier mode would rob them personally of the gratification of completing the game on a harder difficulty.

And I again feel I must restate, I don't and haven't argued in favour of easy modes. It's just annoying seeing the discussion unfold completely ignorant of the points raised in the video from the OP.

[Barry Admin]

I don't see the point in being against something you/we/I won't use. The more people that can enjoy these games (even though I'm not sure if you can enjoy Sekiro in an easy mode but that's a different discussion) the better. Maybe some even use it as some sort of training mode to start hard/normal mode after that.

I don't see the point in being for something you/we/I won't use.

[St_Eddie]

See, this is what's frustrating me in this thread. The video I posted in the OP does not argue for consumers dictating difficulty, nor dictating what an artist can do. It argues quite the opposite. And yet many in the thread are arguing as if that's what is being said. I can only assume those arguing along those lines have seen people elsewhere actually demanding easy modes and they are arguing against that - but that has nothing to do with the video I posted so it's annoying seeing that same point trotted out.

And nobody has explained yet how the existence of an easier mode would rob them personally of the gratification of completing the game on a harder difficulty.

And I again feel I must restate, I don't and haven't argued in favour of easy modes. It's just annoying seeing the discussion unfold completely ignorant of the points raised in the video from the OP.

If watching the video is a requirement for discussion of the topic as titled, then fair enough, I respectfully retract from the discussion and this thread.

[Moribunderast]

If watching the video is a requirement for discussion of the topic as titled, then fair enough, I respectfully retract from the discussion and this thread.

I mean, it isn't specifically (and I didn't choose to start the thread) but you can surely see how it would be annoying to see people arguing over and over again against a point the video doesn't even make, right? It's 27 minutes and by an antagonistic fella, I totally understand why anybody wouldn't have the time or interest in watching it but it's frustrating that the thread has been mired in talk of consumers demanding change when the video doesn't say anything of the sort. People are debating against a point that hasn't been made - not in the discussions that I've seen on CaB, anyway.

[The Boston Crab]

If a dev wants to restrict their own sales on the basis of a design decision (which in the case of Dark Souls is intrinsically linked to the entire fundamental theme of the game and every single interaction with both the world, NPCs and every instance of combat), that's up to them. This is an artistic and commercial enterprise, not a charitable service. Let's get that right.

If it hurts their sales and critical reception, so be it. Given that Sekiro is the fastest selling game FROM has ever released would suggest that they're not overly suffering for this singular commitment. In fact, when Dark Souls first came out, much of its initial reception was 'it's so rewarding to play something that doesn't attempt to flatter the player and which makes you engage entirely on its terms'. A few years on, now that they're vastly more successful and mainstream, people who don't engage on those same terms want the same rewards and the same experience, simply because they've paid the entrance fee. I genuinely feel this is representative of a culture of entitlement. You do not get to dictate individual terms for every interaction in life.

[St_Eddie]

I mean, it isn't specifically (and I didn't choose to start the thread) but you can surely see how it would be annoying to see people arguing over and over again against a point the video doesn't even make, right? It's 27 minutes and by an antagonistic fella, I totally understand why anybody wouldn't have the time or interest in watching it but it's frustrating that the thread has been mired in talk of consumers demanding change when the video doesn't say anything of the sort. People are debating against a point that hasn't been made - not in the discussions that I've seen on CaB, anyway.

I know that you didn't personally split the topic but perhaps this discussion shouldn't have been separated from the Sekiro thread?  I don't know.  It seems as though prior knowledge of Sekiro is a requirement to discussion and I certainly have no interest in watching a half an hour video about a game I know nothing about and have absolutely no interest in playing.

I was merely addressing the general topic of the thread (as per the split topic) and following on from the points raised by other posters.  I'm not sure that this thread need only be about Sekiro and the video in question.  Can it not be about difficultly in games in general and the relationship between developer and consumer?  Is it not a thread's nature to branch and evolve in the specifics of debate?

Having said that, I'm more than happy to respectfully retract from this thread, should you rather the discussion be limited to the video about Sekiro.  I don't have a horse in this race, I was just giving my two cents on the subject in general.

[Timothy]

Are there other examples of games where consumers ask for an easy mode?

I don't see the point in being for something you/we/I won't use.

Why not? What about Sterlings video do you disagree with?
He makes solid points.

[Barry Admin]

Are there other examples of games where consumers ask for an easy mode?

Why not? What about Sterlings video do you disagree with?
He makes solid points.

Because I think the games are great as they are, I suppose.

I haven't watched it.

The thread is a good jumping off point for a wider discussion, people don't have to have watched that video, or feel compelled to defend it.

[Barry Admin]

If a dev wants to restrict their own sales on the basis of a design decision (which in the case of Dark Souls is intrinsically linked to the entire fundamental theme of the game and every single interaction with both the world, NPCs and every instance of combat), that's up to them. This is an artistic and commercial enterprise, not a charitable service. Let's get that right.

If it hurts their sales and critical reception, so be it. Given that Sekiro is the fastest selling game FROM has ever released would suggest that they're not overly suffering for this singular commitment. In fact, when Dark Souls first came out, much of its initial reception was 'it's so rewarding to play something that doesn't attempt to flatter the player and which makes you engage entirely on its terms'. A few years on, now that they're vastly more successful and mainstream, people who don't engage on those same terms want the same rewards and the same experience, simply because they've paid the entrance fee. I genuinely feel this is representative of a culture of entitlement. You do not get to dictate individual terms for every interaction in life.

YES YES YES.

I'm aware that my own prejudices are at play here, and align with this. And not everything should be tailored to suit whining, entitled cunts who spend all day every day on social media. Go and play something else, bastards.

[St_Eddie]

I also agree with post by The Boston Crab.  That's pretty much the exact point I was trying to make about difficultly in games in general.

The thread is a good jumping off point for a wider discussion, people don't have to have watched that video, or feel compelled to defend it.

If that's the case, then I'll stick around.  I think it's important to make it clear that not all of us are addressing the linked video and as such, our thoughts and opinions are in no way reflective of said video (or indeed Sekiro).

[Moribunderast]

I know that you didn't personally split the topic but perhaps this discussion shouldn't have been separated from the Sekiro thread?  I don't know.  It seems as though prior knowledge of Sekiro is a requirement to discussion and I certainly have no interest in watching a half an hour video about a game I know nothing about and have absolutely no interest in playing.

I was merely addressing the general topic of the thread (as per the split topic) and following on from the points raised by other posters.  I'm not sure that this thread need only be about Sekiro and the video in question.  Can it not be about difficultly in games in general and the relationship between developer and consumer?  Is it not a thread's nature to branch and evolve in the specifics of debate?

Having said that, I'm more than happy to respectfully retract from this thread should you rather the discussion be limited to the video about Sekiro.  I don't have a horse in this race, I was just giving my two cents.

I hope I didn't come across like I was having a go at you - not the intention. I've allowed myself to be wound up by a conversation I have no actual interest in due to feeling slight "ownership" of the thread, having done the post that it was split from. The thread can and should absolutely be general, rather than specific about Sekiro - the video is too. I guess I'd just ask where people are seeing these "demands" from consumers that From or anyone change what they're doing - as I haven't seen them. I've seen people debating the merits of it but I've not seen people saying From are wrong for doing things the way they've done. So I get confused when that's the stance that people seem to be arguing against.

[Moribunderast]

YES YES YES.

I'm aware that my own prejudices are at play here, and align with this. And not everything should be tailored to suit whining, entitled cunts who spend all day every day on social media. Go and play something else, bastards.

What do you think of mods? Do they ruin the sanctity of the dev's artistic vision? If someone uses a mod to make a game easier, is that okay? Cheat codes? I think we're being very restrictive by how we define difficulty here.

[Barry Admin]

I'm sorry you feel some ownership and like you have to defend the thread, but it's stimulated debate so was worth it. I split threads every single day as people are so reticent to start new ones and periodically bump years-old, unrelated threads etc. Anyway just to point out that I have watched Sterling's previous video about Sekiro (Jimpressions), and have also followed the thread, tentatively, so I don't encounter spoilers before I can afford the game.

[Moribunderast]

I'm sorry you feel some ownership and like you have to defend the thread, but it's stimulated debate so was worth it. I split threads every single day as people are so reticent to start new ones and periodically bump years-old, unrelated threads etc. Anyway just to point out that I have watched Sterling's previous video about Sekiro (Jimpressions), and have also followed the thread, tentatively, so I don't encounter spoilers before I can afford the game.

No worries, mate. No problem on your end and I'm surprised by how many pages the thread has already reached. I guess I just find it hard to engage with the debate people are arguing because it doesn't address any of the points I'd raise - and when I have raised those points they've been ignored in favour of arguing against "demanding" consumers whom I haven't seen. I have no time for people telling other people how to make their art. I have the same lack of time for people telling other people how to play games in their leisure. So if someone uses a cheat to help beat the final boss of Sekiro, I don't care. If From want to make exclusively balls-hard games great - that's part of the charm.

[Barry Admin]

What do you think of mods? Do they ruin the sanctity of the dev's artistic vision? If someone uses a mod to make a game easier, is that okay? Cheat codes? I think we're being very restrictive by how we define difficulty here.

It's an interesting question, and I definitely have a specific issue with people wanting to make content easier, as opposed to making it... more interesting, or whatever. I'm aware these things may align for some people. As mentioned, I'm a masochistic twat, and really enjoying working within the given restrictions and systems in a game. I don't bend the rules, I play to the limitations that may be there.

I fucking hate cheaters, and I suppose that I perhaps see the desire for an easy mode as a kind of cheating....? Dunno.

[The Boston Crab]

What do you think of mods? Do they ruin the sanctity of the dev's artistic vision? If someone uses a mod to make a game easier, is that okay? Cheat codes? I think we're being very restrictive by how we define difficulty here.

The mods thing has come up a lot as a defence (not that you're doing the same but rather asking the question) and my position is that I am largely against mods because they do essentially ruin the sanctity of the original vision. Of course they do. This also goes for incredible 4K cosmetic mods and skins for Skyrim and the like. The only difference there is that they have the relative blessing of Bethesda but when I see people modding Thomas the Tank Engine into Resident Evil 2, my first thought is 'wacky cunts ruin everything'.

I also feel the same way about people changing the characters' names in Final Fantasy 7 or whatever. Not just to something 'funnee' but full stop.

There are various item randomiser mods for Dark Souls and so on and while I understand the appeal for streamers and speed runners who want to increase the longevity for their own purposes/out of boredom but this is reducing the game to 1s and 0s for me, it's fundamentally ruined.

[St_Eddie]

I have no issue with mods.  If a user wants to unofficially modify their game, that's fine and dandy.  What people choose to do with their own personal copy of a game is their business.  Somebody can buy a novel from a bookstore, take it home and use a magic marker to scrawl out every instance of the word 'people' and replace it with the word 'boobs' if they'd care to, that's their prerogative.  That doesn't mean that I'm a-okay with the publisher going against the author's intent and doing the same thing to 50% of their stock, to offer customers a choice.

Okay, that's a bad analogy but what I do have an issue with is things like the new DLC for the Resident Evil 2 remake, where upon players can opt to buy all of the rewards that other players had previously worked their arses off to earn in-game.  By making that an official option, it intrinsically devalues the blood, sweat and tears of those who put their time in, I feel.  I'm nowhere near skilled enough at that game to unlock the likes of the infinite ammo rocket launcher.  Heck, I'm not even skilled enough to unlock the Tofu mode.

However, that doesn't mean that I should be able to pay Capcom to do so.  The only people (outside of potential unofficial modding) who should be able to blow up zombies by means of a rocket launcher with gay abandon are those who worked for it.  It's their reward.  They earned it.  The likes of myself don't deserve that reward.  If I ever want to experience such things, then I should be expected to put the hard graft in like everyone else, as the designer originally intended.

Let me put it to you this way; back in the PSOne days, I absolutely mastered Ridge Racer Revolution and eventually managed to unlock the coveted White Angel car.  That took serious skill.  Skill acquired through countless hours of gameplay.  In order to unlock said car, the player not only has to ace every course (regular and mirrored), on each skill level (novice, medium and expert) but also beat each course and skill in time trial mode.

The final race (expert time trial) is the race required to unlock the White Angel car and it's against an opponent who's car vastly outclasses your own.  Not only is your opponent significantly faster than you, but they will also perform flawlessly within the race.  By rights it should be impossible to beat this race.  In fact, the only means by which to beat your opponent is by managing to get ahead of them at the very start of the race and then proceed to race a PERFECT three lap course, without making a SINGLE mistake and keeping the ideal racing line at all times, whilst SIMULTANEOUSLY keeping a constant eye on your rear-view mirror and every few seconds, when your opponent swerves to overtake you, positioning yourself to block them off, so that they hit your rear bumper and get set back by a few seconds, whilst continually racing the perfect race.  'Multi-tasking' doesn't even begin to cover it!

None the less, I spent hour upon hour, day following day, month after month, perfecting my skill and eventually, I did it!  I unlocked the White Angel car.  My elation was stratospheric.  There's a reason why they put the White Angel car on the front cover; it's the dream.  It's what you aspire to throughout your entire time with the game.  It's what all will try for but few will achieve.  The ultimate trophy.

Now, it was quite possible for somebody else to use an Action Reply and instantly unlock that very same car.  Whilst I think such people are only fooling themselves and missing out on the entire point of it being about the journey and not the destination, I take no real umbrage with them doing that.  Using an Action Replay back then was akin to modding a game these days; replacing those 'people' with 'boobs'.  However, had Namco had the means to sell DLC back then and a few weeks after I'd busted my arse off in order to earn that White Angel car, they decided to offer players the opportunity to pay a few quid to automatically and officially unlock the fabled car, then yeah, I'd have a big fucking problem with that!  They may as well allow other players to pay a few quid to spit in my face.

Ultimately, the consumer can hack/mod the game to their heart's content.  However, that doesn't mean that it's right for the publisher to betray the developers intent and make that an official option, at the cost of not only the artistic integrity of their product but also at the expense of the worth of the players investment.

[madhair60]

I still think it comes down to whether or not one enjoys the game. Playing something like Dark Souls and finding it too hard or whatever is... well, not enjoying the game. Play a different game, or keep trying. The secret with games like that is that you actually can do it. I gave up on Souls three times before taking one more run at it, clearing the Bell Gargoyles and blitzing to the end of the game. I'm not good at games that work in 3D space and I was able to do that, and it was worth it.

Resi 2 Remake I can't abide but I will buy that "unlock everything" DLC and cunt Mr X in the fuck with infinite ammo