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Difficulty in Games [split topic]

Started by Moribunderast, April 16, 2019, 07:51:42 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

chveik

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 17, 2019, 07:14:22 PM
If people want to experience the exploration and lore but not take part in combat and that's not a part of the designer's intent, then outside of user created mods, tough sodding luck.  Not everything can or should be catered to the audiences personal tastes.  That's not what art is about.

"I think this Mona Lisa painting would look better with green hair and a carrot for a nose.  I think that the art gallery should put up that version next to the original, so that people like me can choose which version to look at."

Oh do you now.  Well, paint your own version then or commission somebody else to do it for you and hang it on your own bedroom wall, you cunt.  Don't be requesting that it be made an officially viable alternative because that's not what Leonardo da Vinci bloody well intended.

can't you understand that it's really not the point they're making here?

Timothy

I dont really think the Mona Lisa and Shakespeare comparisons are adequate.
Eddie could you maybe try and give some examples in the genre of videogames? Which games rhat you played aartistic vision would have been ruined by an easy mode?

Zetetic

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 17, 2019, 07:54:14 PM
But unofficial user created modifications are free and unsanctioned by their very nature.  I'm not really grasping the point that you're making here, I'm afraid.
I wasn't making any point, I was trying to understand your perspective.

"Unsanctioned" hides a lot there. Some games go out of their way to be moddable (and to provide infrastructure for distribution etc.). Some try very hard to be difficult to investigate their innards let alone modify them. Legal protections have been pursued at times.

So it's not an abstract issue to want to explore.

St_Eddie

#183
Quote from: chveik on April 17, 2019, 08:00:14 PM
can't you understand that it's really not the point they're making here?

The point that who is making?

Quote from: Timothy on April 17, 2019, 08:02:24 PM
I dont really think the Mona Lisa and Shakespeare comparisons are adequate.
Eddie could you maybe try and give some examples in the genre of videogames? Which games rhat you played aartistic vision would have been ruined by an easy mode?

I talking theoretically.  My point is more to do with artistic intent versus publisher/consumer intervention, particularly in the realm of DLC and mods.

Quote from: Zetetic on April 17, 2019, 08:13:10 PM
"Unsanctioned" hides a lot there. Some games go out of their way to be moddable (and to provide infrastructure for distribution etc.). Some try very hard to be difficult to investigate their innards let alone modify them. Legal protections have been pursued at times.

So it's not an abstract issue to want to explore.

There's a difference between providing the tools for user created modifications (which I support) and charging money for a modification.  A user created mod is available to those who seek it out but it isn't officially sanctioned by the developer or publisher, regardless of whether they provided the tools to create those mods in the first place.  It's a free customisation for those who want to alter their copy of a game but it is in noway whatsoever a part of the official release and as such, it does not encroach upon the artist's vision, as publicly intended.

Whereas, the moment that a publisher takes a mod and charges money for it, they're essentially saying "this is now official, we now endorse this alteration of the original artist's intention and what's more is we will charge you, the customer, money to make use of this bastardisation of the artist's intent".

Zetetic

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 17, 2019, 08:21:52 PM
A user created mod is available to those who seek it out but it isn't officially sanctioned by the developer or publisher, regardless of whether they provided the tools to create those mods in the first place.  It's a free customisation for those who want to alter their copy of a game but it is in noway whatsoever a part of the official release and as such, it does not encroach upon the artist's vision, as publicly intended.
I think that's increasingly hard to maintain as a view, once you've started integrating Steam Workshop and the like into your games and their UI. We could think broader than that, of course, and consider games that make user-created content a fundamental part of the experience - mods aren't wholly different to that in many cases.  (And Bethesda and Firaxis recognise this, for example.)

Long War 2 (and its funding) and JSawyer (and its provenance) further undermine the idea that you can draw a strict distinction between 'official' and not, that this is the domain of the publisher to determine, and that these things accord with the artist's (who?) vision.

Zetetic

(Both mods that increase difficulty, as it happens.)

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I respect artistic vision. I'm an artistic optician.

Long and short is I platinumed Sekiro and if you can't do that, you're a chode.

Blue Jam

I have never platinumed any game. I'm quite close with Prey but I still can't quite be arsed. Pffft, arsed mate, cigs.


Twed

You know that bit in VVVVVV? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CtiY5D6HCs

For a brief few months I was cool, and was part of a (now defunct) invite-only forum for indie games developers (a group I had little right being part of) and posted a video of me doing that bit a ridiculous number of times. Terry Cavanagh deemed me the official record holder. In secret. And will have definitely forgotten doing that by now.

The point is, it is me who is the best at games.


LanceUppercut

My opinion on this has changed massively over the years. When  I was young and no responsibility I would happily spend a couple of weeks smoking weed and completing COD in veteran mode or do the endurance races in gran turismo which sometimes took 3 hours doing the same circuit for 100 laps.

Nowadays I above responsibilities and kid's to support so my time and patience has changed significantly, I would never dream of spending a couple of days trying to get to one checkpoint in a difficult part of a game.

I want to be able to pick up the controller nowadays and just enjoy playing the game and enjoying the storyline, so everything gets played on the easy mode and I have no shame in that at all. I played Celeste with invincibility and unlimited air dashes after chapter one as it was starting to become unbearable and looking at some of the later chapters screens I knew I would have never been able to complete the game and enjoy the storyline, but thanks to the option there to apply these cheats as I got to see a beautiful game to the end enjoying the story and not having to worry about spending 10 minutes to suss out how to complete the room.

St_Eddie

Quote from: The Boston Crab on April 17, 2019, 11:23:00 PM
Maybe five people play that crrrap

Yes, but Twed is the still the official record holder.  A god among five men.

Twed

Quote from: The Boston Crab on April 17, 2019, 11:23:00 PM
Maybe five people play that crrrap
Yeah it's too difficult for most people.


Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Leaked footage from one of From Software's development meetings.

I'd have more sympathy for the whole artistic intent argument if it weren't so poncy if, as others have said, it didn't rely on the idea that a creator is somehow infallible. Considering the number of people that can work on a single game, that's highly doubtful. It's the kind of thinking that leads to people claiming that The Shining is evidence that the moon landings were faked.

Besides which, I find Bloodborne's specific level of difficulty artistically dubious.  The emotion that it wrings out of me most of all isn't existential dread, nor a mournful lament for the state of the game world, or any of that highfalutin gubbins. Nope, just a sort of angry tedium. Every time I grumble "Oh, fuck off!" under my breath, my engagement with the game and its themes is shattered all to bits and I have a hard time believing that is at all intentional.

Anyway. From Soft are bunch of Johnny come latelys. God Hand said "Git gud" before it was cool.

madhair60

Quote from: Twed on April 17, 2019, 10:45:12 PM
You know that bit in VVVVVV? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CtiY5D6HCs

For a brief few months I was cool, and was part of a (now defunct) invite-only forum for indie games developers (a group I had little right being part of) and posted a video of me doing that bit a ridiculous number of times. Terry Cavanagh deemed me the official record holder. In secret. And will have definitely forgotten doing that by now.

The point is, it is me who is the best at games.

I did it before you and better, probly.

VVVVVV is one of the best games ever in all of history int it

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on April 18, 2019, 12:55:55 AM
Leaked footage from one of From Software's development meetings.

I'd have more sympathy for the whole artistic intent argument if it weren't so poncy if, as others have said, it didn't rely on the idea that a creator is somehow infallible. Considering the number of people that can work on a single game, that's highly doubtful. It's the kind of thinking that leads to people claiming that The Shining is evidence that the moon landings were faked.

Besides which, I find Bloodborne's specific level of difficulty artistically dubious.  The emotion that it wrings out of me most of all isn't existential dread, nor a mournful lament for the state of the game world, or any of that highfalutin gubbins. Nope, just a sort of angry tedium. Every time I grumble "Oh, fuck off!" under my breath, my engagement with the game and its themes is shattered all to bits and I have a hard time believing that is at all intentional.

Anyway. From Soft are bunch of Johnny come latelys. God Hand said "Git gud" before it was cool.

In fairness to you, the difficulty in Bloodborne has little to do with the themes or concept for the game. That's why they made it a lot easier than Dark Souls. It's basically Dynasty Warriors for the FIFA crowd.

They focused more on a feeling of aggression in Bloodborne to represent the desperation and bloodlust of the main character. See that regain mechanic? Hammering R1 to get some health back after taking damage. What a wonderful marriage of player and character, the same shared need and violent desire. Progress through slaughter, sopping with viscera. I'm sure you'd agree they really captured that emotion through the one game mechanic and put you in the character's perspective.

BeardFaceMan

The argument isn't that game creators are infallible is it? It's that you're playing their vision of the game. The same way an author isn't infallible and you're getting their vision of the story or a painter isn't infallible and you're getting their vision of a picture. Its this weird sense of entitlement that gamers have that other art lovers don't seem to have, this sense that every game has to be suited to everyone's tastes. So if you don't like someone's vision it's fine and dandy to expect it to be tailored to suit others too. It's not for you, suck it up and move on.

greenman

I would say that online gaming makes it far more of an issue, really the end of my serious gaming "career" was the release of Team Fortress 2 and how dumbed down it was looking for a wider appeal.

Timothy

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on April 18, 2019, 10:27:26 AM
The same way an author isn't infallible and you're getting their vision of the story or a painter isn't infallible and you're getting their vision of a picture. Its this weird sense of entitlement that gamers have that other art lovers don't seem to have, this sense that every game has to be suited to everyone's tastes.

I still don't get the comparison when it comes to the artistic vision of videogames and the artistic vision of paintings or movies. Gamers aren't entitled. They are just more vocal. Logical since it's interactive entertainment.

Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on April 18, 2019, 08:24:46 AM
I did it before you and better, probly.

Oh yeah? Let's ask Terry CavanaOH he's completely forgotten me

St_Eddie

Quote from: Timothy on April 18, 2019, 02:38:19 PM
I still don't get the comparison when it comes to the artistic vision of videogames and the artistic vision of paintings or movies. Gamers aren't entitled. They are just more vocal. Logical since it's interactive entertainment.

Interactive entertainment or art?

Art, mate.  Art (or at least for the most part).  The consumers of art should not be dictating how the artist expresses themselves.  That's fundamental.

Zetetic

Setting aside the issue that many games (particularly the ones we seem to be talking about) are multi-person massively expensive endeavours funded on the basis of profitability (and thus subject to the diktats of consumers filtered through market-signalling)*:

Are they allowed to ask politely?

* Not least because that would bring us back to how From have prostituted their art by cramming their currently fashionable signature entertaining gameplay loop into places where its less relevant thematically but more accessible aesthetically and profitable.

Would you go into a restaurant and say, "excuse me, what are your gluten free options, please?" Of course you wouldn't. You'd have chicken tartare or you can piss off.

Sin Agog

Quote from: Zetetic on April 18, 2019, 04:11:14 PM
Setting aside the issue that many games (particularly the ones we seem to be talking about) are multi-person massively expensive endeavours funded on the basis of profitability (and thus subject to the diktats of consumers filtered through market-signalling)*:

Are they allowed to ask politely?

* Not least because that would bring us back to how From have prostituted their art by cramming their currently fashionable signature entertaining gameplay loop into places where its less relevant thematically but more accessible aesthetically and profitable.

Dunno if that footnote is necessarily true.  Didn't they just announce a slate of games more in line with their varied roots?

Twed

If there was a big stink about the difficulty of modern puzzle games then we could call it the "Baba Issue".

Thank you very much for reading my Internet message.

Timothy

#208
Quote from: St_Eddie on April 18, 2019, 03:30:05 PM
Interactive entertainment or art?

Art, mate.  Art (or at least for the most part).  The consumers of art should not be dictating how the artist expresses themselves.  That's fundamental.

Interactive entertainment where in most occasions the customers help shape the game before they can even experience it, indeed often made by massive teams.

Some video games can be considered art. But certainly not all of them.

Zetetic

I'll raise Getting Over It again, if anyone does want an example of one-person-produced game specifically concerned with challenge and failure, and using them in the game itself appropriately and unavoidably to tackle that.

Quote from: Sin Agog on April 18, 2019, 04:29:10 PM
Dunno if that footnote is necessarily true.
No, its truth is indeed contingent on actual events.