Author Topic: Difficulty in Games [split topic]  (Read 3232 times)

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2019, 08:46:43 PM »
But the barriers aren't generally so high outside of hard-fail gameplay - failing to sufficiently understand (?!) the first few scenes of Mulholland Drive doesn't prevent you from engaging with the rest of it.

Besides which, you do of course see huge amounts of material intended specifically to lower barriers to interpretation of films and books. (And abridged and re-edited versions - sometimes very specifically for clarity.)

I wouldn't deny that sometimes you can't make something easy to 'understand' without changing what it is or what it conveys, mind you.

Blue Jam

  • Internal organs are really overrated
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2019, 08:47:19 PM »
Prey now has a story mode where the enemies don't attack you. I can't see the point of that one because the combat is so much fun, in particular because supplies are so sparse and the game forces you to get creative.

I lile Wuss Mode in SOMA because it's best played as a story game, because the stealth is rubbish. It's good but I'd rather the stealth was better...

I wouldn't complain about Alien: Isolationif you could actually change the difficulty mid-game and didn't have to start all over again after ten hours. Also the archaic save system is a pain in the arse...

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2019, 08:48:12 PM »
That's because it's not feasible, and would be very expensive.

Would it hurt if somebody did have a version of Eraserhead that was dumbed down for them and they watched it in private and you never had to see it?


I would object on principle, and I’d also feel that the budget was being wasted.

I don’t want art to get dumber, I want people to get smarter.

Edit: more accurately, I want artists to aim high and not feel constrained by a need to pander.

Twed

  • "J" Joe Jeans and his jelly beans
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2019, 08:48:57 PM »
I wouldn't deny that sometimes you can't make something easy to 'understand' without changing what it is or what it conveys, mind you.
Puzzle games definitely being an example of this. But again, you can still make those games so that you can engage with them without mastering the most difficult puzzles.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2019, 08:51:17 PM »
It's also an art form which is fundamentally about overcoming obstacles, reaching goals, meeting challenges, learning through repetition.
Nah. That's a specific kind of game.

The point Timothy brings up is interesting about how little Sekiro has aside from difficulty. Has From (or anyone else) actually managed to develop on Dark Souls as art expressing something? To say something that they've haven't already said before?

Or have they just come up with some variations on a theme in the interest of entertainment? That isn't a bad goal, I hasten to add, but perhaps it points to how limited the stories you can tell with From-esque difficulty really are. (And, arguably, many From games are bloated for reasons that have little to do with what they're trying to convey. Which seems more of a criticism than it's meant to be - those reasons may still be good.)



Getting Over It seems worth mentioning. It can't exist without its difficulty or its length.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2019, 08:54:48 PM »
Puzzle games definitely being an example of this. But again, you can still make those games so that you can engage with them without mastering the most difficult puzzles.

Or you can read a Guide. (Mind you, many puzzle games don't convey much - and they're not meant to.)

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2019, 08:57:48 PM »
You can also watch YouTube videos and read guides about games like Sekiro.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2019, 08:59:49 PM »
Should you be able to?

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2019, 09:02:11 PM »
You can also watch YouTube videos and read guides about games like Sekiro.

Wouldnt help though. A guide or walkthrough is no help with that game. If the controls or movement is too difficult or fast youre screwed.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2019, 09:04:06 PM »
Nah. That's a specific kind of game.

The point Timothy brings up is interesting about how little Sekiro has aside from difficulty. Has From (or anyone else) actually managed to develop on Dark Souls as art expressing something? To say something that they've haven't already said before?

Or have they just come up with some variations on a theme in the interest of entertainment? That isn't a bad goal, I hasten to add, but perhaps it points to how limited the stories you can tell with From-esque difficulty really are. (And, arguably, many From games are bloated for reasons that have little to do with what they're trying to convey. Which seems more of a criticism than it's meant to be - those reasons may still be good.)



Getting Over It seems worth mentioning. It can't exist without its difficulty or its length.

Never played DS and just started BB but from stories and comments it seems those games have more substance then Sekiro.

St_Eddie

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2019, 09:04:16 PM »
I don't understand the language used in the works of Shakespeare.  I shouldn't be expected to put the effort into learning the meaning of those classic texts and so, I propose that a new edition with all of the language changed to modern English so that I, an entitled ignoramus, can too enjoy those stories.  Also, my 2 year old kid should be able to enjoy those stories and as such, they should release a textless pop-up picture book edition of Macbeth.  It's not fair that my 2 year old should be deprived of the experience, just because she scrawls in crayon, drools and poops her pants every waking second.

Fuck intent.  Screw esoteric art.  Bollocks to learned skill and experience.  All hail the age of the participation prize.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2019, 09:07:21 PM »
^ Failed to engage with previous discussion about guides and re-editing. Nothing interesting added by considering how Shakespeare is staged or adapted - and how that can help people better engage with the original (?!) text.

Please return to the start of the thread and try again.



XCOM and its ilk are interesting. Largely deliberately built around an early-mid-game difficulty spike and then mostly increasingly fast decrease in difficulty - which vaguely ties into the narrative of the game, and the smaller stories that players generate for themselves with it.

Which modders (and DLC in the case of the recent XCOM games?) then try to fiddle with - mostly so that the late-game and those smaller stories don't end up so boring so fast.


Sin Agog

  • Dogs fucked the pope; no fault of mine
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2019, 09:07:29 PM »
To be fair, there are quite a few adaptations of Shakespeare which are the equivalent of an Easy Mode.

St_Eddie

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2019, 09:08:13 PM »

I would object on principle, and I’d also feel that the budget was being wasted.

I don’t want art to get dumber, I want people to get smarter.

Edit: more accurately, I want artists to aim high and not feel constrained by a need to pander.

This.  So much this.

To be fair, there are quite a few adaptations of Shakespeare which are the equivalent of an Easy Mode.

Doesn't make it right though.

Sin Agog

  • Dogs fucked the pope; no fault of mine
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2019, 09:10:51 PM »
The first book I ever remember reading as a kid was a picture book of Monkey (when we broke down outside a book shop).  It might be quite an ask of a five-year-old to read the entire 2000-page Journey to the West.  I'm all for not making art one size fits all, just sayin' sometimes entirely different versions of things have a place in the world.

St_Eddie

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2019, 09:12:07 PM »
Perhaps developers could have the option for players to not only alter the difficulty of every aspect of the game but also choose which levels they want to play and also...  actually, fuck author intent at any level.  The developers should stop developing and just hand the source code over to their customers.  Then again, a lot of people aren't going to be skilled enough to edit that source code, so I propose an easy mode for doing that too.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 09:32:12 PM by St_Eddie »

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2019, 09:12:46 PM »
Can you even compare movies and books to videogames / interactive entertainment when it comes to subjects an easy mode? Complete different beasts imo.

St_Eddie

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Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2019, 09:15:24 PM »
It might be quite an ask of a five-year-old to read the entire 2000-page Journey to the West.

Why does a five year old have to be given the option or opportunity to read Journey to the West?  I think that adaptations are kind of a separate thing but you see my point.  It's like trying to take a work of art and turn it into a McDonald's Happy Meal, so that little Johnnie can drool all over its pages and completely fail to appreciate or understand the original intent of the author.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2019, 09:17:00 PM »
Sekiro has a lot to offer besides its difficulty, for crying out loud. Please don't take that statement as a foundation for any further points or hypotheses. It's just wrong. The story and lore and environmental storytelling is superb, just relatively obscure as ever, and requires piecing together.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2019, 09:20:30 PM »
Sekiro has a lot to offer besides its difficulty, for crying out loud. Please don't take that statement as a foundation for any further points or hypotheses. It's just wrong. The story and lore and environmental storytelling is superb, just relatively obscure as ever, and requires piecing together.

I dont really agree. The story is bland, the game is quite repetitive and imo the difficulty makes it so that you start exploring and find the lore. Without the difficulty and places where you get stuck there is not much need for exploring or finding baids or prosthetics and therefore with an easy mode most people wouldnt even see half of the game. Or at least thats what I think.

Twed

  • "J" Joe Jeans and his jelly beans
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2019, 09:23:12 PM »
I dont really agree. The story is bland, the game is quite repetitive and imo the difficulty makes it so that you start exploring and find the lore. Without the difficulty and places where you get stuck there is not much need for exploring or finding baids or prosthetics and therefore with an easy mode most people wouldnt even see half of the game. Or at least thats what I think.
So maybe it isn't true that making difficulty levels sacrosanct always raises gaming as an art form.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2019, 09:23:28 PM »
What Im trying to say is how much people would piece it together when its not necessary to do so? Playing Sekiro in an easy mode wouldnt do the game justice. But if people want to do so, finish it in easy and maybe try hard after that I dont see much wrong with an easy mode.


Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2019, 09:25:05 PM »
You description does give the difficulty another clear purpose - it drives exploration.

And I think there's a wider discussion about obscurantism in work like From's and exactly what it's meant to elucidate.

I suppose the question for me is still whether, through the use of its difficulty, Sekiro manages to tell a radically different story with radically different themes to Dark Souls.

(Including, I suppose whether the mechanically juggling between the two serves a purpose much beyond entertainment and - maybe - coherence with the setting.)

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2019, 09:25:16 PM »
Should you be able to?

Yes. People gitting gudder is fine by me.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2019, 09:25:37 PM »
And while typing that comment I think, no, when it comes to Sekiro adding an easy mode would completely ruin the experience of the game. I really think the difficulty makes people explore more because they need to.

Git gud is a nonsense term though. Dont git annoyed when you keep losing makes more sense.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2019, 09:28:06 PM »
Yes. People gitting gudder is fine by me.
But by looking to a guide or a video, they're no longer doing so via the experience of the work itself. They've violated the work as presented, by seeking some vapid shortcut.

At that point, they might as well start using AutoHotkey.

At that point, they might as well start fiddling about with values in memory.

Edit: Notably many people specifically avoid spoiling works, like Dark Souls or Sekiro in this way.

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2019, 09:31:45 PM »
A guide or walkthrough wouldnt help you past the bosses in Sekiro. Thats a learning curve and experience.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2019, 09:35:48 PM »
Does anyone think it's wrong to skip "Wrong Side of The Tracks"?

Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2019, 09:35:57 PM »
But by looking to a guide or a video, they're no longer doing so via the experience of the work itself. They've violated the work as presented, by seeking some vapid shortcut.

At that point, they might as well start using AutoHotkey.

At that point, they might as well start fiddling about with values in memory.

Edit: Notably many people specifically avoid spoiling works, like Dark Souls or Sekiro in this way.

I don’t agree with any of this I’m afraid, although am a maniac when it comes to avoiding spoilers, and much of my enjoyment comes from working out and deconstructing systems.

I’ve no problems with people working to try and get better at something, or to try and understand it on a deeper level. That’s completely different to wanting the original thing to be watered down and made palatable.

Blue Jam

  • Internal organs are really overrated
Re: Difficulty in Games [split topic]
« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2019, 09:44:39 PM »
A guide or walkthrough wouldnt help you past the bosses in Sekiro. Thats a learning curve and experience.

One thing I love about Prey is the way you would frequently die fighting a certain enemy, and keep coming back to try different approaches until you finally found one that worked. It wasn't frustrating, it was incredibly satisfying to try a lot of different approaches- and again, a walkthrough wouldn't be much use. I also loved the way one objective was simply "Escape." with no further hints.

Would I enjoy Sekiro?