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Difficulty in Games [split topic]

Started by Moribunderast, April 16, 2019, 07:51:42 AM

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Moribunderast

Has anyone in this thread watched the video in the OP? I know it's 27 minutes long but I feel like it does a decent job debating against a lot of the points being made. One thing from it, for those banging on about artistic integrity and the artist's vision (which I'm fully on-board with, btw) : Do you ever use mods? Don't they compromise the artist's vision?

The video's main hypothesis which I agree with is: it's fucking games - let people enjoy games the way they want to. If it doesn't impact you, why care?

Timothy

Yeah I agree with that.

Mori, do you think Sekiro would be fun or a good game without the difficulty?

Quote from: Blue Jam on April 16, 2019, 09:44:39 PM
One thing I love about Prey is the way you would frequently die fighting a certain enemy, and keep coming back to try different approaches until you finally found one that worked. It wasn't frustrating, it was incredibly satisfying to try a lot of different approaches- and again, a walkthrough wouldn't be much use. I also loved the way one objective was simply "Escape." with no further hints.

Would I enjoy Sekiro?

It's not really about trying a variety of strategies like with Prey. It's more about learning the precise ins and outs of an amazing but brutal combat system. Imagine a sword fight where you press a button to deflect or block every enemy blow and then counter with precise timing and gradually wear down your opponent's defence and posture and then SCHLUNK, you slide your sword through their armpit or eye socket and then use your grappling hook to take evasive action up onto the rooftops before diving down onto your next unsuspecting foe and sliding your sword into their shoulder and through the heart.

You have a series of prosthetic arm attachments like a shuriken and axe and flamethrower and stuff like that to mix up your attacks and buy yourself a moment's pause, etc. It's very dependent on timing, reading some subtle animations and reacting quickly to enemy attacks. When it clicks, I don't think I've ever played a game with combat like it but it took me until nearly the end of the game before I got into what it was really doing and how it wanted me to play. New Game Plus has been colossal, so so much fun and even more brutal because I'm taking everything head on rather than running off to hide. I'd say if anything there sounds tempting, there's little else like it out there, but equally it's really hard at first and much of this current difficulty debate is purely down to this game.

Twed

I agree that those games exist and it's important. I am notoriously a stickler for wanting to defeat the developer's original challenge in a game, too. I don't play things that are too open-ended generally, I just lose interest without a specific goal.

but

I also do not think that harm is done by making all of the game accessible to all players. It's their choice and it's a self-limiting problem. If Sepulcher or whatever it is you're talking about is shit if it isn't difficult, I think things are improved by people discovering that. PC games didn't become dumbed-down during that era where you could type 'noclip' into the console and become God.

Moribunderast

Quote from: Timothy on April 16, 2019, 09:57:18 PM
Yeah I agree with that.

Mori, do you think Sekiro would be fun or a good game without the difficulty?

Exploring the world: yes.
Regular Combat: less daunting so less fun to learn.
Boss Combat: Wouldn't bother me if they were a touch easier.

But, again as mentioned in the video I posted, people who balk at difficulty options (and I feel I have to re-state, I don't particularly care and don't necessarily "want" them in Sekiro or any other game they're not present in) fail to take into account different skill levels. Like, if someone's unplayably shit at Sekiro, giving them an easy difficulty doesn't mean it won't challenge them. It will still be difficult for them, just not unplayably so. And yes, it's not From's responsibility or obligation to make a game more readily accessible (in terms of difficulty) to a wider section of players and I would never demand they do BUT if they chose to, I fail to see how it would affect anybody who elected to continue playing at the original difficulty setting.

Funniest thing about all this is Sekiro ALREADY has difficulty settings. We all played on "Easy" unless you rang that bell.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Basically, there are load of filthy nerds out there who can't face the fact that they've wasted countless hours of their lives on FromSoft games, so they're desperately trying to convince themselves that it all had some profound meaning.

Barry Admin

Alternatively, people just want to feel some sense of ownership over things that mean something to them, and relish feeling like they're part of a somewhat exclusive club.

Twed

I appreciate that you aren't pretending it's something else Barry (I do mean that, I know it could sound sarcastic)

A lot of time people would try to mask that sentiment behind some false rationale.

St_Eddie

For the record, I've never even played a FromSoft game.  I never played Dark Souls preciously because of how notoriously difficult it is.  Does that mean that I think the game should be made easier and more palatable for people like me?  Heck no!  In fact, I insist that it shouldn't.  Not every game needs to be for everyone.

Twed


Kelvin

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 16, 2019, 11:12:56 PM
For the record, I've never even played a FromSoft game.  I never played Dark Souls preciously because of how notoriously difficult it is.  Does that mean that I think the game should be made easier and more palatable for people like me?  Heck no!

This is a false argument. Almost no-one is arguing that the main, default game should be made easier. However, an additional mode with more health (or whatever) would hurt precisely no-one - neither creatives, nor gamers - and would benefit many more. That's why it wouldn't damage the creative's vision, because that core, intended, difficult experience would still exist for all the people who wanted to be big boys with their pants pulled up, but there would still be an additional way to enjoy everything else the game has to offer for people who don't have tiny peepees.    :)   

Barry Admin

Quote from: Twed on April 16, 2019, 11:08:45 PM
I appreciate that you aren't pretending it's something else Barry (I do mean that, I know it could sound sarcastic)

A lot of time people would try to mask that sentiment behind some false rationale.

I guess so. It's a really interesting discussion to me, and I definitely have to admit that part of it comes down to a sense of pride and ownership. And I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with that, really.

Moribunderast

Quote from: Barry Admin on April 16, 2019, 11:06:23 PM
Alternatively, people just want to feel some sense of ownership over things that mean something to them, and relish feeling like they're part of a somewhat exclusive club.

But why would their ownership be compromised if other people completed the game on an easier setting? People complete and get pride out of finishing games on the hardest setting all the time and the existence of lower settings doesn't take away from the experience, so why, in a hypothetical world where From games had difficulty settings, would that harm their experience?

Moribunderast

Quote from: Kelvin on April 16, 2019, 11:18:48 PM
This is a false argument. Almost no-one is arguing that the main, default game should be made easier. However, an additional mode with more health (or whatever) would hurt precisely no-one - neither creatives, nor gamers - and would benefit many more. That's why it wouldn't damage the creative's vision, because that core, intended, difficult experience would still exist for all the people who wanted to be big boys with their pants pulled up, but there would still be an additional way to enjoy everything else the game has to offer for people who don't have tiny peepees.    :)   

I think part of the problem is people are arguing for and against different viewpoints, here. I feel like some people are arguing against an idea that players DEMAND easier settings (and I'm sure some do, but it's not where I'm coming from, nor what the Sterling video argues for) while others are arguing that the mere existence of difficulty settings wouldn't be the end of the world, nor harm the experience of those who chose to ignore them. So it's kinda like watching a debate where both sides have chosen different topics but are continuing headlong anyway.

And as I say, Sekiro ALREADY has difficulty settings, which makes the debate about it kinda comical.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: Kelvin on April 16, 2019, 11:18:48 PM
This is a false argument. Almost no-one is arguing that the main, default game should be made easier. However, an additional mode with more health (or whatever) would hurt precisely no-one - neither creatives, nor gamers - and would benefit many more. That's why it wouldn't damage the creative's vision, because that core, intended, difficult experience would still exist for all the people who wanted to be big boys with their pants pulled up, but there would still be an additional way to enjoy everything else the game has to offer for people who don't have tiny peepees.    :)   
Yeah, it doesn't have to be a walkover, just not a pisstake.

Stockholm Syndrome, that's what it is.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Kelvin on April 16, 2019, 11:18:48 PM
This is a false argument. Almost no-one is arguing that the main, default game should be made easier. However, an additional mode with more health (or whatever) would hurt precisely no-one - neither creatives, nor gamers - and would benefit many more. That's why it wouldn't damage the creative's vision, because that core, intended, difficult experience would still exist for all the people who wanted to be big boys with their pants pulled up, but there would still be an additional way to enjoy everything else the game has to offer for people who don't have tiny peepees.    :)   

Yes, but I understand that a huge part of the appeal of Dark Souls is its difficulty.  I totally get that.  I appreciate how completing that game is somewhat of a badge of honour.  I also understand that its the experience that the developers intended for their players.  Adding an easy mode for the casuals and people who suck at games would lessen the achievement for those who complete it on its intended difficulty.  Far better that I, as someone who doesn't want to play a game that difficult, simply not play it.  Suits me fine.  I'm not so ego-centric as to think that everything needs to be catered towards myself, nor alternative options provided to counterbalance my incompetence or unwillingness to put the time and effort into improving my skill level.

Kelvin

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 16, 2019, 11:39:59 PM
I'm not so ego-centric as to think that everything needs to be catered towards myself.

You forgot the smiley face   :(

St_Eddie

Quote from: Kelvin on April 16, 2019, 11:42:22 PM
You forgot the smiley face   :(

Sorry, I don't do smiley faces.  On the Internet, or in real life.

Kelvin

They're the easy mode for human interactions.

Moribunderast

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 16, 2019, 11:39:59 PM
Yes, but I understand that a huge part of the appeal of Dark Souls is its difficulty.  I totally get that.  I appreciate how completing that game is somewhat of a badge of honour.  I also understand that its the experience that the developers intended for their players.  Adding an easy mode for the casuals and people who suck at games would lessen the achievement for those who complete it on its intended difficulty.  Far better that I, as someone who doesn't want to play a game that difficult, simply not play it.  Suits me fine.  I'm not so ego-centric as to think that everything needs to be catered towards myself, nor alternative options provided to counterbalance my incompetence/laziness.

But why would it lessen the achievement? They'd still have the trophy saying they beat it on the intended difficulty while filthy casuuul scrubs wouldn't - that happens with tons of games. And isn't it similarly egocentric that these players DEMAND the game be made specifically for them, as opposed to including options that would bring in other players?

God, I'm debating something I don't even care about and basically arguing against my own opinion - WHY DID YOU SPLIT THIS TOPIC OFF, BARRY? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ME?

Zetetic

I think the point about modding is worth hanging on to.

I hate the idea that we should be seeking to make games more brittle and more closed than other art forms, when one of their greatest features is that they can be rejigged and remoulded in a much more generative fashion.

(And one of the most obvious ways is fiddling with difficulty.)

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 16, 2019, 11:39:59 PMAdding an easy mode for the casuals and people who suck at games would lessen the achievement for those who complete it on its intended difficulty.
And - as a mod - perhaps that's another good reason to do it.

chveik

Quote from: Barry Admin on April 16, 2019, 08:41:38 PM
Gaming is an art form, and I don't think you really see this sort of pandering in other art forms.

'This David Lynch film is all weird, can you make a version that's not as weird so I can understand it and don't feel like I'm missing out?' - no, go and fuck yourself.

if David Lynch's films are the first example that come to your mind when you think about high art, I'm afraid you're not much smarter than the people you despise.

Kelvin

Quote from: Zetetic on April 17, 2019, 12:09:33 AM
I think the point about modding is worth hanging on to.

I hate the idea that we should be seeking to make games more brittle and more closed than other art forms, when one of their greatest features is that they can be rejigged and remoulded in a much more generative fashion.

(And one of the most obvious ways is fiddling with difficulty.)

Cheat codes, too. People didn't care that games used to have cheat codes for invincibility, etc. You either used them or you didn't. It didn't affect anyone who just wanted to play the game "properly".

Also; Save states in classic game emulators. No-one gets this worked up about those.

Kelvin

Quote from: chveik on April 17, 2019, 12:11:54 AM
if David Lynch's films are the first example that come to your mind when you think about high art, I'm afraid you're not much smarter than the people you despise.

First your comments on Endgame, now this. You really want us to know how clever you are, don't you?

chveik

Quote from: Kelvin on April 17, 2019, 12:16:15 AM
First your comments on Endgame, now this. You really want us to know how clever you are, don't you?

nah just teaching them how to be a proper patronizing twat.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Dishonored 2 contains a good example of an easy mode fundamentally altering the experience. Turning on the destination markers negates the need to explore the levels and find clues. You just go wherever the glowing arrow is pointing. Needles to say, the game is much more interesting with them turned off.

Tweaking a Soulsborne game so that the monsters moved fractionally slower than the speed of sound and bosses could be beaten in twenty goes, rather than a thousand, would have no such effect on the overall experience. The precious artistic vision would still be intact.

Barry Admin

Quote from: chveik on April 17, 2019, 12:11:54 AM
if David Lynch's films are the first example that come to your mind when you think about high art, I'm afraid you're not much smarter than the people you despise.

I don't despise people, and I don't think I'm that smart. Nor am I particularly interested in films. I do like video games though.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on April 17, 2019, 12:24:46 AM
Dishonored 2 contains a good example of an easy mode fundamentally altering the experience. Turning on the destination markers negates the need to explore the levels and find clues. You just go wherever the glowing arrow is pointing. Needles to say, the game is much more interesting with them turned off.

Tweaking a Soulsborne game so that the monsters moved fractionally slower than the speed of sound and bosses could be beaten in twenty goes, rather than a thousand, would have no such effect on the overall experience. The precious artistic vision would still be intact.

How about if bonfires were more frequently available? How about if you didn't risk losing your souls after death, therefore meaning exploration didn't have the same sense of risk and trepidation?

That'd be shit, I reckon.

Sin Agog

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on April 17, 2019, 12:24:46 AM
Dishonored 2 contains a good example of an easy mode fundamentally altering the experience. Turning on the destination markers negates the need to explore the levels and find clues. You just go wherever the glowing arrow is pointing. Needles to say, the game is much more interesting with them turned off.

Tweaking a Soulsborne game so that the monsters moved fractionally slower than the speed of sound and bosses could be beaten in twenty goes, rather than a thousand, would have no such effect on the overall experience. The precious artistic vision would still be intact.

The thing about some of the Dishonored abilties and the lack of concessions in Dark Souls is, I just tend to play with the options I'm given.  So in Dishonored the x-ray eyes makes no-kills stealth mode almost too easy, and yet I use it.  And in Souls, I just muddle and kite my way through the pain, somehow finishing the game in spite of myself.  I'd imagine there are a lot of other gamers who vacillate between weak-willed and dogged according to what's there.  The tragedy about adding a difficulty mode is I'll only go and use the bloody thing.

Zetetic

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on April 17, 2019, 12:24:46 AM
Dishonored 2 contains a good example of an easy mode fundamentally altering the experience. Turning on the destination markers negates the need to explore the levels and find clues.
Noting that there's a whole bunch of other ways of altering the difficulty.