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IT: Chapter 2

Started by Goldentony, May 09, 2019, 05:14:15 PM

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peanutbutter

Quote from: Goldentony on September 07, 2019, 06:23:16 PM
the book is the size of a house and features among other things an entry for nearly every one of Mike's interviews with locals about oldk IT sightings, an intergalactic battle of wits with IT''s true form in complete darkness and a conversaton with a turtle that vomited up the universe so there's a LOT to get in there
When has being faithful to the source material been an important factor for a horror movie though?

Know next to nothing about the book or film, to be clear, it just seems crazy to me that it got as far as the theatre without anyone putting a cap on its runtime.

Schnapple

Quote from: BritishHobo on September 08, 2019, 05:53:29 PM
Was his weirdness supposed to go somewhere? I get that he's going a bit mad remembering his brother, but I thought the kid shouting "STOP FOLLOWING ME!" in the mirror maze was gonna lead to some pay-off.

I suppose the pay-off is Bill's guilt when he fails to stop Pennywise murdering the kid, which motivates the final act.

Head Gardener


I kind of enjoyed it but it was tonally very odd, pandering heavily to the modern sensibilities with the constant jokes and meta shit. I felt frightened a number of times but it was the same cunt's trick repeated again in again with jump scares and a big mouth zooming towards the screen.

Way way too long and I can barely remember anything that happened. The dialogue was often incredibly cheesy and the ending was really really shit. There was no sense of tension because you never knew what was actually a threat. It was both omnipotent and omnipresent but seldom genuinely threatening. The ending was like a daft action film. Sad to not really get much from this because I really enjoyed the first part overall. Kids best parts of this again by and mile except Jessica Chastain's big tits.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Schnapple on September 08, 2019, 03:55:38 PM
Worse, this is a reference to The Thing/Hader's character referencing The Thing. But really, it's just a rip-off of The Thing, disguised in basic meta-irony. Shite.

Hader's character is a stand-up, and his story opens with him throwing up with anxiety having gotten the call from Mike to return to Derry. He then goes on stage to headline a large theatre, and given his distracted state of mind, he forgets his second gag. He apologises sheepishly, and somebody in the crowd shouts, "You suck!"

Now, this is a quibbling note, but given that he's headlining his own show in a vast theatre, to his own fans, as a famous comedian, would anybody ever really shout that so fast in those circumstances? It's nothing compared to some of the poor dialogue that follows, but it really took me out of the film, indicative of the general slapdash approach.

Yeah, that jumped out at me, too.  Just really poor writing, and unnecessary to boot.

Custard

#125
I thought he was performing at a Live At The Apollo type show, with several other comedians. And I'll keep thinking that, as you're right, it doesn't make much sense otherwise

I really enjoyed this. Surprised at Hader's jokey dialogue getting a kicking, as most of it landed for me. Actually had a couple of belly laffs in there. Did feel a bit Marvel at times, mind. Like Thor or one of the Guardians had suddenly turned up

It was a bit too long, deffo, but the first was over two hours too, and it kinda flew by for me

It was mostly decent, and surprisingly funny in places. Loved the old woman scene, and them pulling a heart out of a clown pancake at the end. Could've done without the soppy letter from the bloke who chickened out, mind. Should've ended on the reflection of them as kids

Oh, and the gay bashing opening. Oof. Really nasty, and possibly uneeded too. I thought the one who survived was gonna be one of the kids grown up, but erm, no. Here's a scene of a gay couple bring battered then bit in the armpit. It felt like it belonged in a different film, and I'm a bit confused as to why it was there. Were they simply trying to outdo the horrible opening to Part One?

Noodle Lizard

Apparently the gay-bashing was in the book, something about a horrible incident every 27 years causing Pennywise to return, plus "hidden darkness in a pleasant town" type thing. But yeah, since that wasn't particularly clear in the movie, it did strike me as excessive and needlessly grim.  Didn't help that the perpetrators had that awful "movie bully" dialogue, so it didn't even feel authentic.

kidsick5000

I have not been so bored by a film in a long time.
It follows the path of the first film, you may as well just watch the first film and imagine the cast being much older.

Little of it makes sense, it relies so much on jump scares with little follow up that Pennywise seems more like a mild annoyance than a nightmare.

And three hours with no answers to basic questions.

Why did Mike stay there. If they all left soon after the original It, and forgot they lived in Derry, how does Mike have all their cell phone numbers?

And many many more

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: kidsick5000 on September 09, 2019, 07:25:44 AM
Little of it makes sense, it relies so much on jump scares with little follow up that Pennywise seems more like a mild annoyance than a nightmare.

Yeah, this was my problem with the first one too.  For such an unstoppable malevolent force, he seems remarkably shit at actually killing - or even really harming - these kids.  His modus operandi involves a lot of jumping out at them and shaking about, but then disappearing.  I seem to remember some explanation about fear making them taste better or whatever, so he's trying to properly shit them up before eating them, but it still doesn't really make sense since he has no such misgivings about biting a little girl's head off of an evening.

Quote from: kidsick5000 on September 09, 2019, 07:25:44 AMWhy did Mike stay there. If they all left soon after the original It, and forgot they lived in Derry, how does Mike have all their cell phone numbers?

The other thing about this is that, in the first chapter, they gave the "town historian" role to the fat kid, reducing Mike to basically nothing.  So there's even less of a reason for it to be Mike who stuck around doing all this research.

Enrico Palazzo

It's just insanely long. I kept thinking 'this is three hours long, why has this pointless scene not been cut'. 5.3 out of 10.

Cuellar

Watched the first 'chapter' last night, and preferred it. Although I had the same thought that Pennywise actually does fuck all to harm these kids, really, he's rubbish. I suppose that's part of the point, the real horrors in the first film are Bev's pervy dad, Eddie's Munchausen mum, Bill's grief ridden family (which is Pennywise's fault I suppose but still), the racism directed at Mike, I forget the others. Oh yeah, fat kid's fatness etc.

The first film relied a lot less on shonky CGI, and relied a bit more on Skarsgard's acting to make things creepy, which was better.

colacentral

Quote from: Schnapple on September 08, 2019, 11:38:41 AM
I really liked the first one and was willing this to be great, or at least good, but I thought it was pretty terrible. Perhaps the worst sequel involving all the principal creative minds from the first. As has been observed by everyone elsewhere, it's far too episodic and the middle lumbers on and on, each CG-enhanced spooky moment undercut by one of Bill Hader's lame gags. I was prepared for the film to inevitably feel a bit more like a blockbuster, given the scope of the action and especially given the runaway success of the first film, but it had the feel of a Marvel epic by the time they're finally out of Pennywise's cosmic lair. And while I was hardly expecting Martyrs level terror, there's really no excuse for a horror film, even one as mainstream as this, to be so completely lacking in tension, suspense and just general purpose.

Also, the girl who plays Young Bev is a better and far more charismatic actor than Jessica Chastain.
.

It sounds like you're describing the first one. Have you rewatched it recently? I'd say to your point that this is "the worst sequel involving all the principal creative minds from the first" that those minds were terrible to begin with.

BritishHobo

I was gonna mention the homophobic attack, and I think the issue with it also crosses over with what's being raised (correctly) about Pennywise's shitness at his job. I'm sure the book really pushes this idea that Derry, because of Pennywise, is basically infected with hatred, darkness, violence. He brings it out in the townspeople, a real malevolent presence, a sickness. There's much more space given to the town as a whole, and the slowly growing friendship between the kids, which Pennywise occasionally interrupts. It comes off more that he's a presence all over the town, rather than someone specifically targeting those kids.

It did stick out for me during the double showing, because the first film for a large chunk comes off as 'Pennywise scares one kid, fucks off, scares the next, fucks off, etc', all in the space of like, two days. And then stuff like the opening of the second one comes off like 'why did those random homophobes do such a horrible thing?'

There's quite a few things like that where they have stuff from the book, but don't give the reason behind it. In the book, 'beep beep, Richie' is a bit of a catchphrase, but nobody ever uses it in the film, except Pennywise inexplicably says it in the house near the end. Similarly they all keep repeating 'He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghost' in the second one, but never explain it's Bill's tactic from speech therapy to stop his stutter, so it just sounds like they're all talking nonsense.

Custard

Ah thank you Noodle Lizard, that makes the opening make more sense

Been thinking about the film today, and there were some nice creepy understated bits in-between all the jumps scares, too.

The people at the fair pausing in the background,then suddenly dancing in time to Pennywise's song, the old woman peering round the door, Pennywise with no makeup then slowing slavering it on, Bev's dad spraying  her so (maybe) she smells like her mum for him, other bits I'm sure were there but I'm not remembering

Could've done without the leper vomiting black stuff into Eddie's face, or the little girl scene being quite so graphic, or the extended beatdown on the gay couple. The Chinese restaurant scene went on a bit too long too. Think that'd have been far more effective if it'd ended with the message being laid out on the table

I also agree the CGI was pretty shoddy and comical in places, which is weird as a lot of other shots are really lovely to look at. But they did seem to be going for an Evil Dead vibe a bit, so maybe all that was meant to look a bit wonky and comical. Especially the old woman. She was creepy and effective enough without becoming a massive old naked woman with an animated face. Though admittedly that scene did make me laugh, a lot

Bowers never needed to be in either film, as he was useless and achieved fuck all. He's fended off really easily in both films, and couldn't Pennywise have done all he did (or tried to do) anyway? Did like the line about him still having a mullet



Goldentony

man that bit when Bowers gets into the car, the fucking 80s sports car with his zombie mate in the driving seat I had a massive smile on my face     

bgmnts

Is it Christine in the original miniseries? I don't remember.


Goldentony

another thing, im biased because I do like the source material a lot but 2 hours and 50 is about the length of the mini series isnt it? can see why some people couldnt be fucked with that

EOLAN

Watched it more like a 'Shaun of the Dead' fun buddy comedy rather than a legitmate horror. Not too surprising for me 'cos I loved the Exorcist as a genuine comedy as well; but most of the crowd in the cinema seemed to be similar.
Didn't follow any media for this and wife bought me along. Must have been munching on my nachos for some of opening credits so I was delighted when it seemed that Bill Hader was the top billed actor. Was wondering if the woman who I thought looked a bit like Jessica Chastain in any HBO TV series or something. Enjoyed the film and run-time didn't bother me in the viewing; although did mean had to give the dog a 2am walk when got back.
Probably peaked at the Chinese restaurant scene for me, especially with that funny baby-faced spider thing. The most tense scene was probably the young girl with the mark on her face who wandered off at the baseball game. While a good scene; given complaints about running time certainly didn't seem to add anything at all to the narrative.

Custard

I think the little girl scene worked in that it reminded you that Pennywise really is offing innocent little kids, and brutally, and needs to be stopped. But I would've stuck it at the start, instead of the brutal gay couple attack. Maybe that'd be too similar to the Georgie opening to Part one?

It should have cut before he latched on to her head though. Needlessly grim. Then again, I didn't like seeing him take off Georgie's arm, either. When it's little kids it's just fucking horrible to watch

Once they're over 15, munch away!

Utter Shit

Quote from: The Boston Crab on September 08, 2019, 07:55:47 PM
the ending was really really shit.

Delighted to hear that they've stayed faithful to the original movie.

EOLAN

Oh one thing that annoyed me a bit was Chastain hooking up with the boy who is no longer fat. Seemed to me that it suggested that given he was now a hotty she could open her eyes and be willing to see that he was the one that wrote his captivating and no longer needs to be friendzoned. I assume her husband retained all their business rights; as much as a prick as he was.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: EOLAN on September 10, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
Oh one thing that annoyed me a bit was Chastain hooking up with the boy who is no longer fat. Seemed to me that it suggested that given he was now a hotty she could open her eyes and be willing to see that he was the one that wrote his captivating and no longer needs to be friendzoned. I assume her husband retained all their business rights; as much as a prick as he was.

I think it's a little more fleshed out in the book.  But I think he's also the one with the biggest dong in the orgy, so not sure if it's that much less shallow.

But yeah, it's quite astonishing how crap of a character she was, especially since the filmmakers must have seen the criticism of her treatment in the first one - where she basically gets reduced to a damsel in distress, saved by a kiss from Prince Charming, none of which is in the book.  If anything, it's like they doubled down and made her even more of a nothing.

buzby

Quote from: bgmnts on September 09, 2019, 11:14:59 PM
Quote from: Goldentony on September 09, 2019, 11:07:49 PM
man that bit when Bowers gets into the car, the fucking 80s sports car with his zombie mate in the driving seat I had a massive smile on my face   
Is it Christine in the original miniseries? I don't remember.
In the 2017 film the Bowers' gang car is a 1980 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am. There are no 1958 Plymouth Furys or Belvederes in the 1990 miniseries. Richie does drive a 1988 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z convertible in it though.

Schnapple

Quote from: EOLAN on September 10, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
Seemed to me that it suggested that given he was now a hotty she could open her eyes and be willing to see that he was the one that wrote his captivating and no longer needs to be friendzoned.

To be fair, he's lost a lot of weight, but more so, twenty-seven years have passed and what adult, domestically abused Bev wants is obviously going to be different to the teenage version of herself. I know it's a boring trope, but it's far from the most unreasonable parts of the script.

I must admit, a lot of the reaction to this rubbish film has made me feel further ostracised from what people actually want from a horror movie. The opening violent attack on the gay couple seems to be coming in for a lot of criticism. I understand that from the perspective that it's tonally a bit of a rum cold open and doesn't expand enough on the idea that Derry is 'poisoned', but it seems to be seen as actually homophobic itself in certain quarters. I suppose the argument could be that the gay characters are simply used as bait for violence, that it's poor representation in that sense, but I guess I have strong tolerance for bad things happening in horror movies, be that societal violence or supernatural clowns murdering small children.

H-O-W-L

Sounds like, just like with the first movie, the test audiences savaged the scenes that made the plot cohesive and wanked themselves comatose over the more boring and shitty oogly boogly woo moments leading to a lop-sided and poorly-paced film. I'm going to see it on Sunday with my sister anyway just because we saw it together and we rarely see one another nowadays, but I doubt I'll be wowed.

For reference there are some absolutely crucial scenes that were cut at the last minute from the first movie, like Bowers washing out of the sewer with all the dead kids, and getting done for it as a result. Also, Bowers killing his mates brutally instead of them just disappearing from the plot. Others, too, that I've forgotten were reported. Here's a list.

Cuellar

Ah, that list makes part 2 make sense (in a way)

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Cuellar on September 12, 2019, 10:44:18 AM
Ah, that list makes part 2 make sense (in a way)

The problem with Part 1, which is likely the case with Part 2, is that they reference shit that only makes sense if you've seen the miniseries or the book, the former of which actually set up and added context to most of what happened (even if it was shit all over frankly) and the latter obviously established it in the first place. Even minor shit like "beep beep richie".

IT as written is almost unfilmable as a motion picture due to its episodic structure, and as people have said it would have worked far, far better as a structured miniseries with several hour-long instalments and perhaps a feature-length finale or the sorts. It's not just the length of the book, it's the structure too. It's why this remake has been in development since not long after the miniseries was originally made; it took that long to finally crack it.

Cuellar

One bit that I didn't get, and I don't know if it was a reference to the book or the original minseries because I'm pretty sure it wasn't referenced in the first film, is when Eddie gets vommed on by the weird zombie leper in the basement some rock and roll music (can't remember what song it was now, Beach Boys?) blasts out for about 3 seconds, then stops.

???

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Cuellar on September 12, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
One bit that I didn't get, and I don't know if it was a reference to the book or the original minseries because I'm pretty sure it wasn't referenced in the first film, is when Eddie gets vommed on by the weird zombie leper in the basement some rock and roll music (can't remember what song it was now, Beach Boys?) blasts out for about 3 seconds, then stops.

???

That was the scene they let someone's Deadpool fan cousin direct.

Custard

Red Letter Media think it (the Angel Of The Morning song) was probably put in for laffs, as they probably wanted it to be a straight horror scene and it just looked silly. Blast of sudden music, SCENE SAVED, we meant it to be funny

Was really badly edited and jarring, mind