Star Trek - Picard show

[grainger]

The world is full of people saying "it's not practical to aim for a better world; politicians are all corrupt, and because people are inherently shit there's no point in expecting them to be honest and it's futile expecting the world to be a better place; all you can do is make it worse for other people". And that's what helped get us into the mess we're in now.

Most modern fiction seems to start from this bleak baseline. Trek said differently. I don't want to argue about what is "practical" or "realistic". It's about having something positive to aim for. There's nothing wrong with the usual story of "one exceptional person vs. a lousy world" but it was good that one prominent show did things differently. Except now it doesn't (and don't get me started on Section fucking 31).

[grainger]

You do have a point on the dark turn. I'd say the writers/producers want to say something about our post-2016 world. I am mildly concerned it's veering too close to Bladerunner but let's see where they take it. Picard will clean it all up no doubt, like the scouring of the shire.

Sacrilege on not liking DS9. You have foresaken the prophets young man!

DS9 was a great show. I collected it on VHS at the time, to the end, out of residual loyalty to TNG. But I don't like it.

Picard won't "clear it up", since we're talking about the baseline world. He might succeed in his mission, but that won't be to stop the Federation being a Blade-Runner-esque world, because that's what the creators imagine it to be. To them, that isn't particularly a bad thing, it's just inevitably what the future will be like. (obv. I don't know what the creators' view are on this, but it seems likely)

Apparently, Earth was always pretty shit. As Sisko said: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise. Of course, I'm not talking about the bits of earth that are shit. I just mean the bits where rich people like Picard get to live."

:-(

[gatchamandave]

Good points, Grainger.

[Blumf]

Aside from the obligatory grimdark, the world of Picard also feels oddly lower-tech than TNG

I got the opposite feeling. Take that overly elaborate case thing the painting was in, folding away in a dull SFX demo reel style. That just felt too finickity for Trek, they would have just used a case. The holo interfaces, like the phone, just felt overly elaborate yet dull. Not only have we seen it all before in other sci-fi[nb]I think Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within did it well, two decades ago![/nb], but it just seems clunky whereas TNG era LCARS looked usable.

Overall, there's no doubt in my mind that this is JJ/Discovery's Trek, not Roddenberry's. All the grimdark, and almost complete absence of a sense of improvement being possible. Sure DS9 looked at the darker side of the universe, but it was still in the context of society being capable of improvement.

Also, this whole fucking Romulan Empire needing Federation help. They're a fucking massive empire, they can easily look after themselves. Why are the show creators fixated on that dead end of a plot point from the JJ Trek films?

[Alberon]

The Romulans were, of course, based on the Romans. So why not have the Empire split in two and the half with Romulus in collapse after the supernova? After all, the Western Roman Empire fell in the fifth century (or thereabouts). The Eastern Roman Empire endured for another thousand years.

[Dewt]

This isn't for me, just feels like the same modern formula trading off the Star Trek franchise.

[petril]

The Romulans were, of course, based on the Romans. So why not have the Empire split in two and the half with Romulus in collapse after the supernova? After all, the Western Roman Empire fell in the fifth century (or thereabouts). The Eastern Roman Empire endured for another thousand years.

isn't that how the Romulan Empire came about anyway? Vulcan being the western half

[McDead]

This isn't for me, just feels like the same modern formula trading off the Star Trek franchise.

It is exactly that.

[Cloud]

I like it so far.

I've always (since it was even mentioned) taken it as a commentary on the current state of the world.  Don't give up on it yet.  It's saying times can get shit, but I believe the message of the show is that it can get better again and the institutions you looked up to for their warmth and kindness, but fell out of love with due to their fear, hate and bigotry, can get over themselves and be worth looking up to again.

It's an in between for me.  The idealism of Star Trek TOS+TNG can be a bit naive, but DS9 could get too grim at times.  I think the Picard show is going to say (somewhere in the middle) that we CAN have the idealism but it's not safe; we can't be complacent and must work for that kind of future and continue working for it even if we attain it.  I think it's great.  Good things don't come so easy.

[Lemming]

Not feeling it, but it's not as bad as I feared. It's obviously way too early to make a call on how the series will pan out, but my impressions from the first episode are mixed to the point where they settle on almost totally neutral.

I'm not hugely interested in what the plot seems to be - the synthetics rights question wasn't really interesting in TNG (yes, I'm one of the four people on Earth who doesn't enjoy Measure of a Man), or in Voyager with the Doctor, and I can't foresee it being any more engaging here. The Romulan refugees plot is far more interesting and I hope that gets the most focus, even though I don't understand what's going on. The entire rescue fleet sent by Starfleet was destroyed, and then what? They just decided not to send more and all became (more) racist against Romulans? Or they literally couldn't send more and Picard got outraged anyway? Only saw the episode once so if this was explained better, I missed it.

I'll also add my voice to people who say that Star Trek shouldn't be grimdark, although I don't feel Picard has strayed too far into grimdarkness yet. Like grainger, I didn't get on with the later parts of DS9 partially for the same reason (love it up to season five or so though). Outside a select few episodes, the Federation's increasing immorality never felt earned to me in DS9, and the same goes here. I don't see how the Federation of the TNG era, who had an unstoppable hard-on for cultural relativism and inclusiveness, would suddenly become racist xenophobes. And this is the whole Federation? Vulcan agreed this was logical? Betazed, the Tellarites, the fifty billion random planets Kirk invited to join, they all simultaneously agreed that isolationism and xenophobia was the best way forward? Alright. Again, I know it's the first episode, there's still plenty of room to make this interesting, and I hope they do.

In fact they've laid out plenty of decent foundation to build on. The Romulan refugee crisis could end up interesting, Starfleet could get a nuanced but still optimistic portrayal, the synth rights question could end up being a lot better than its been dealt with before (seriously, Riker asks Data to bend a steel bar and Picard calls that a "devastating" case against sentience, which he can only combat with his own even more dumb pro-sentience case). I'll watch the next episodes with hope but my adrenaline will be through the roof at all times, just waiting for the plot point or character or scene that kills the series' promise. I hope it never comes.

Then there's the stupid jarring shit like the Marvel-esque hand-to-hand fight against the Romulan assassins who dress and speak like cartoon villains, Picard getting launched 500 feet into the air by an exploding disruptor rifle, etc. I'm sure there'll be more of that to come. On the plus side, I did get a new desktop wallpaper that makes me laugh every time I see it:


It's better than Discovery so far but it's annoying me for a lot of the same reasons - it feels like the writers don't really want to write a Star Trek series. I'm not criticising anyone as a bad writer or suggesting they're not "true Star Trek fans" or that Star Trek should forever be confined to my exact specific tastes, but at the same time there's now two Star Trek series airing this year with like four more in the pipeline and literally none of them, as far as we can tell, seem to be interested in making something in the mold of TOS/TNG/VOY, or even DS9, in structure or tone.

[Cloud]

Random thought: Holograms aren't considered synthetics?  If they are then why is one allowed to operate the archives?

[Lemming]

Voyager tried to make a distinction between "sentient" holograms like the EMH, and other holograms a couple of times. Vaguely remember an episode where the Doctor tries to free some "enslaved" holograms only to find out they're shit and have about as much sentience as an Atari 2600 or something like that.

Good question though, especially with regards to the archive hologram, who clearly has a personality and emulates sentience. It's what always bothered me about the way TNG handled the issue of sentience - if Data is given human rights essentially just because you can't conclusively prove he's not sentient, then surely we should give human rights to the Enterprise computer (which emulates sentience more convincingly than Data in some ways), the archive hologram, talkie toaster, roombas... all of which would be up for being banned under the Federation's anti-synthetic lifeform law.

[oy vey]

That episode with the holograms was Voyager's Flesh and Blood. Latent Image has even more to say on the doc's sentience I think but anyway. The hologram issue is sticking out like a sore thumb here. I hope the writers have thought of it and don't just march Picardo on in a cameo as if he's not relevant to the synthetics issue.

[wooders1978]

I am not into Star Trek but I gave episode one a go and rather enjoyed it - I think it's made in such a way to appeal to a wider audience - and a woman who kicks ass! Massively original in these times

[Malcy]

That episode with the holograms was Voyager's Flesh and Blood. Latent Image has even more to say on the doc's sentience I think but anyway. The hologram issue is sticking out like a sore thumb here. I hope the writers have thought of it and don't just march Picardo on in a cameo as if he's not relevant to the synthetics issue.

'Author Author' has him find out he has no rights to the holo novel he creates about Voyager and they have the back and forth court case to try sort it out.

It ends with him being granted the same rights as everyone else and all the EMH's doing menial tasks talking about it. I would have thought that he would be right at the front of the argument for and against with the Synths. Maybe he'll get a mention.

[Blumf]

You can understand a certain amount of distrust of AI in the Federation; what with Nomad, M-5, V'ger, and a bunch of planets who's societies have been enslaved by automated systems. Not to mention the Borg.

There's an interesting debate to be had on the topic. Trouble is, it wouldn't exactly be interesting viewing (or, if it was, it'd be dumb).

[Pranet]

Liked the first episode well enough.

[VelourSpirit]

All the action in the trailer made me certain this was going to be like Discovery, but so far it's really different feeling. Not keen on the sort of high tech looking standard generic sci fi blue lights and shit, and there's gonna be a lot more than that as per the trailers, but... yeah, it's paced nicely, feels largely more TNG than Discovery. The action stuff I just think, well there was action in TNG, so there's going to be action in this, and we've had 25 years of action scenes since then so it's going to be more refined and fast paced.

[phantom_power]

Random thought: Holograms aren't considered synthetics?  If they are then why is one allowed to operate the archives?

Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage

[olliebean]

Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage

The EMH touches things all the time. He couldn't do his job otherwise.

[Zero Gravitas]

The EMH touches things all the time. He couldn't do his job otherwise.

Only after legion ripped the guts out of his light bee and stuffed a thimble inside it.

Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage

You have no right to be in this thread.

[the hum]

That was promising, and miles ahead of Discovery already in that it achieves something it continually struggled to do (amongst the latter's myriad flaws) and that Trek was frequently so good at; building intrigue. In terms of look and feel, I think it was always going to struggle to match the aesthetics of the TNG series. For all it's greatness, TNG was very set-bound, especially in its early years, and sometimes to its detriment. It does though capture the feel of the TNG movies pretty well, and as others have said, it does feel like prime universe Trek, albeit not in a direct fashion. Will definitely be continuing with this.

[the hum]

I don't see how the Federation of the TNG era, who had an unstoppable hard-on for cultural relativism and inclusiveness, would suddenly become racist xenophobes. And this is the whole Federation? Vulcan agreed this was logical? Betazed, the Tellarites, the fifty billion random planets Kirk invited to join, they all simultaneously agreed that isolationism and xenophobia was the best way forward?

Brexit innit.

[Dropshadow]

Brexit innit.

Borgxit. The Borg have changed everything. They can warp in, en-masse, at any time, so Starfleet are "temporarily" switching over to Fascism.

[Blumf]

The Federation will regain it's Gomtuu fishing rights back from the Romulans.

[idunnosomename]

gift: if you dont like this show, feel free to call it "Poocard"

[the hum]

The Federation will regain it's Gomtuu fishing rights back from the Romulans.

Are brave Argus Array

[Ambient Sheep]

Limmy's review:

https://twitter.com/DaftLimmy/status/1221416799411089408

[phantom_power]

Only after legion ripped the guts out of his light bee and stuffed a thimble inside it.

You have no right to be in this thread.

And that's why everyone hates Star Trek fans

[Cloud]

It's interesting seeing the difference in reaction my parents have to it as well, who are not "go and post on the internet about it" nerds and only ever saw half of DS9 and Voyager and barely any Enterprise, but loved TOS and TNG.  Discovery was generally a lot of blank stares, nodding off and "what the hell just happened, what year are they in now, all this all this going back and forward in time is confusing, are those really Klingons why do they grunt so much everything is confusing" (don't even get started on trying to explain the Kelvin timeline) and a lot of "erm, who's she again?" and generally blank stares that I read as "why am I even watching this?" (something I've asked myself a few times as well). 

Hugely different with Picard.  Lit up faces, feedback of "wow, I can actually follow this", and even catching on about Dahj's twin.  Genuine interest and engagement.  This is the first time I've seen this of Trek in over 2 decades (because early Enterprise was a bit shit as well so they never got into it).

Obviously Picard gets a HUGE headstart in terms of having familiar characters and "this is about 20 years after TNG" is easier to place than "it's about 5 years before TOS at the moment but that's subject to change and no I don't know why it looks so modern oh and yes the gay one is alive again now do keep up".  But I think it definitely helps when characters have some kind of charm and when it's not all written so that you have to be a supernerd to wrap your head around what's happening.  Accessibility to more casual Trek fans in terms of complexity and pace is a huge thing it's all been missing lately.  It remains to be seen whether new characters will be charming and memorable in some way like Picard and imaginary-Data (the best Discovery S1 could manage is Saru) as I'm not sure "Doctor Bashir as a flirtatious Romulan Good-Guy Pirate" is going to cut it, but it's made a good start so far.