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X-Men: Dark Phoenix.

Started by Glebe, June 07, 2019, 12:34:55 PM

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Glebe

Just saw this yesterday (in IMAX 3D)... as with Godzilla: King of Monsters (which I've not seen as yet), this is another recent movie I was hoping would be a decent enough watch that ended up getting slaughtered by the critics, but I went to see it anyway because I fancied going to the flicks. It's not good, but it's not quite as bad as some critics are making out... at least one review I read suggested that it lacks any emotional involvement or character development, which isn't actually true. It has a lot in common with the execrable X-Men: The Last Stand, but it's actually not much of an improvement on that. It's not an ideal way to end the Fox Marvel run... they should have spent more time on the characters and their history rather than wasting time introducing mysterious alien forces into the mix... actually, as this New Rockstars vid explains , some issues arose around that element of the story during production.

And speaking of New Rockstars, this trailer breakdown they did points out a fun little gag, with the 'MCU' initials on the train guards' uniforms possibly standing for 'Mutant Containment Unit' but seemingly being a nod to the X-Men joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe... where they'll hopefully be treated with a little more respect than they're received in recent times.

Btw, this is interesting:

Exclusive: Matthew Vaughn talks his plans for First Class sequels.

QuoteComingSoon.net: If you could have split yourself into two people and still done the "Kingsman" movies but also finished out that "First Class" cycle what would you have done differently?

Matthew Vaughn:
That's one of the reasons I didn't continue, because they didn't listen to me. My plan was "First Class," then second film was new young Wolverine in the 70's to continue those characters, my version of the X-Men. So you'd really get to know all of them, and my finale was gonna be "Days of Future Past." That was gonna be my number three where you bring them all... because what's bigger than bringing in McKellen and Michael and Stewart and James and bringing them all together? When I finished the "Days of Future Past" script with it ready to go I looked at it and said, "I really think it would be fun to cast Tom Hardy or someone as the young Wolverine and then bring it all together at the end." Fox read "Days of Future Past" and went "Oh, this is too good! We're doing it now!" And I said, "Well what do you do next? Trust me you've got nowhere to go." Then they did "Apocalypse" and it's like... If you flip that 'round even it would have been better. Hollywood doesn't understand pacing. Their executives are driving 100 miles-per-hour looking in the rear-view mirror and not understanding why they crash.

Movie execs screwing things up for a fast buck. Btw, Bryan 'My career is over because I am a horrible scumbag' Singer obviously had no part in the making of Dark Phoenix.

peanutbutter

Are there more superhero films than ever this year or are cinemas just keeping them around on multiple screens a lot longer? Definitely feels like they're taking up a much bigger part of the cinema listings than I can recall happening before.

St_Eddie

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 07, 2019, 01:29:06 PM
Are there more superhero films than ever this year or are cinemas just keeping them around on multiple screens a lot longer? Definitely feels like they're taking up a much bigger part of the cinema listings than I can recall happening before.

There's an absurd number of superhero movies, possibly more than ever before but what with Disney owning Marvel and now 20th Century Fox, the superhero movies are getting more screens and for longer because Disney is notorious for forcing cinemas to favour their movies over other studios' output, lest they refuse to provide that cinema with any further releases from them (which would effectively put that cinema out of business, such is Disney's stranglehold on the industry).

Fuck you, Disney.

bgmnts

I watched the first X-Men film recently and it still holds up. That and X-Men 2 are bloody great and nothing has touched it since. Sad, really.

Chollis

I'd be alright if they stopped making X-Men movies now.

Glebe

As I say, this wasn't quite as bad as some critics have suggested, but it's a pretty mediocre sent-off for the Fox Marvel X-Men.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Chollis on June 07, 2019, 02:33:55 PM
I'd be alright if they stopped making X-Men movies now.

Extend that to superhero movies in general and I agree.

SavageHedgehog

#7
I never really got all the monocle drops over The Last Stand. It was a little dumber and broader than the first two, but we're not talking night and day. Certainly at least two X-films since have been worse.

I'm talking from ignorance, but I get the sense the Comics saga is one of those things that works when you've had years of getting to know the characters, not really as the conclusion to a trilogy of two hour films with 50 other characters, and certainly not just after you've just introduced new versions of these characters that didn't really make an impression in a film that didn't really catch on.

Still, it's interesting how quickly things change. Remember how when Days of Future Past came out it was hailed as some kind of classic. And here we are two "cannon" films later

Kelvin

Quote from: SavageHedgehog on June 07, 2019, 03:21:20 PM
Still, it's interesting how quickly things change. Remember how when Days of Future Past came out it was hailed as some kind of classic. And here we are two "cannon" films later

Yes, it always pisses me off a bit when people slag off the X-Men universe, when Days of Future Past is significantly better than a large chunk of the Disney/Marvel films, and Logan is, imo, better than all of them. Even Deadpool 1 and 2 feels fresh and distinctive, regardless of whether the humour all works for you. At it's best, the X-Men universe has been very good indeed - even if the lows have been lower than Marvel.

peanutbutter

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 07, 2019, 01:57:21 PM
There's an absurd number of superhero movies, possibly more than ever before but what with Disney owning Marvel and now 20th Century Fox, the superhero movies are getting more screens and for longer because Disney is notorious for forcing cinemas to favour their movies over other studios' output, lest they refuse to provide that cinema with any further releases from them (which would effectively put that cinema out of business, such is Disney's stranglehold on the industry).

Fuck you, Disney.
Are they doing that internationally now? I know they really doubled down on it in the US over the past 5-10 years.

Man, between that, things like MoviePass and other free cinema ticket incentives (I get so many fucking free cinema tickets these days), and all the Netflix VC money bumping things... I can't help but feel the whole industry is just gonna abruptly crash at some point.

St_Eddie

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 07, 2019, 06:34:27 PM
...I can't help but feel the whole industry is just gonna abruptly crash at some point.

I'm thought the same thing quite a few times.  At the very least, I think that cinemas are destined to go the way of the dodo.

mothman

Do they still make 3D versions of films? Because that was their reaction to streaming services (and to video in the 80s, and to television in the 50s...).

Mister Six

Quote from: Kelvin on June 07, 2019, 05:31:11 PM
Yes, it always pisses me off a bit when people slag off the X-Men universe, when Days of Future Past is significantly better than a large chunk of the Disney/Marvel films, and Logan is, imo, better than all of them. Even Deadpool 1 and 2 feels fresh and distinctive, regardless of whether the humour all works for you. At it's best, the X-Men universe has been very good indeed - even if the lows have been lower than Marvel.

I saw Days of Future Past but I can't for the life of me remember what happens. I remember them being in the future, and... Peter Dinklage is some kind of evil politician? There's a bit with a submarine? I assume Logan does something because he Quantum Leap's into his own body, doesn't he? But I have no idea what he even does after that first bit set in the future.

I reckon all of the X-Men films bar Logan (which is fantastic) are okayish to shit, especially compared with the best MCU output, although the first film was obviously great for its time, and very influential. I don't really consider Deadpool an X-Man film - it's off in its own daft little universe.

BritishHobo

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 07, 2019, 01:57:21 PM
There's an absurd number of superhero movies, possibly more than ever before but what with Disney owning Marvel and now 20th Century Fox, the superhero movies are getting more screens and for longer because Disney is notorious for forcing cinemas to favour their movies over other studios' output, lest they refuse to provide that cinema with any further releases from them (which would effectively put that cinema out of business, such is Disney's stranglehold on the industry).

Fuck you, Disney.

It's fucking mad how much they've claimed the cinema this year. Captain Marvel, then Dumbo, then Avengers: Endgame, then Aladdin, then Spider-Man, then Toy Story 4, then The Lion King, then Frozen 2. Three superhero films and three live-action remakes of animated films in the same five month span.

peanutbutter

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 07, 2019, 06:36:09 PM
I'm thought the same thing quite a few times.  At the very least, I think that cinemas are destined to go the way of the dodo.

I think cinemas as a mainstream thing will eventually warp into some manner of experience that cannot be in any way replicated in a smaller room without tons of gear. The Disney endgame seems to be something like a fortnightly event the masses just go to.

As a niche thing there'll probably be room for a well equipped dark room where you've to be quiet and focus, whether that increasingly focuses on retrospective screenings is another thing though. As far as a mid level theatre, or an independent that's too big or not in an area where it can be very niche, they're all just fucked, surely. Unless they've an Alamo Drafthouse gimmick.

St_Eddie

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 07, 2019, 11:49:39 PM
Unless they've an Alamo Drafthouse gimmick.

I sorely wish that there were Alamo Drafthouse in the UK.  Zero tolerance is the only way to deal with inconsiderate irritants in the audience.

kidsick5000

This is by no means as bad as some X-Men films.
I'm more willing to give it a pass because there are very clear intentions of doing something different here. Something different to the procession of  flat cgi setpieces.

It has issues, obviously but it's less offensive than Apocalypse

Shaky

The big problem with most of the X-men films is they rarely even try to make anyone other than Logan, Xavier and Magneto interesting. Maybe Jean and Mystique too, at a push. That's really undersold some other great characters with decades of backstory. The likes of Storm, Cyclops, Rogue and Colossus are just faintly annoying bit players (although the latter was redeemed somewhat by Deadpool).

It's tough to give everyone screen time but bloody hell, it's been 19 years now. Avengers managed it in a fraction of that.

Glebe

'Dark Phoenix': Let's Talk about Unearned Resolution.

QuoteSpoilers ahead for Dark Phoenix.

Dark Phoenix is a movie that doesn't really work on any level. Even by its own metric where in the opening voice over, Jean Grey (Sophie Turner) asks who we're meant to be and if we can evolve, the film doesn't really have an answer. Because we never really get to know who Jean Grey is beyond someone who had a traumatic past, the best the film can offer is a limp, "Embrace your emotions, love your family, and sacrifice for the greater good." Jean's "evolution" is that she has to face her past trauma, gets an apology from Xavier (James McAvoy), and then dies in order to stop the bad guy, Vuk (Jessica Chastain). That's an incredibly weak resolution to its own question of who Jean Grey is/was or what her evolution entailed.

But that's not the last scene of the movie. The last scene is this bizarre button that belongs from a different movie with different leads. The final scene has Xavier, now retired from being the head of Xavier's School for Gifted Children (renamed the Jean Grey School for Gifted Children) and quietly enjoying retirement at a Parisian café. There he's greeted by Magneto (Michael Fassbender), who offers Xavier a home in his little commune and also a game of chess. After declining the game, Charles reluctantly accepts, and they start to play again. Overhead, we see the Phoenix/Jean re-enter the atmosphere for a movie that will never happen.

Setting aside the Phoenix, this scene is completely unearned. It's clear that for writer-director Simon Kinberg, this is the ending the franchise needs because the central conflict has always been between Xavier and Magneto, and the belabored chess symbolism shows how they approach the question of mutants and humans from different perspectives. However, their friendship is not really a part of Dark Phoenix. They have one scene where they confront each other, Magneto dismisses Xavier as soft, and then there's a set piece. That's it. That's the extent of the Magneto/Xavier divide in Dark Phoenix.

So where does this scene come from? Why does Magneto (who, it should be mentioned, is a mass murderer who just gets to walk free because of reasons) feel the need to reconcile with Xavier? What does their friendship mean in terms of its reconciliation? Does Magneto now accept living in peace with humans? Does Xavier now believe that isolationism is the only way forward? What does this scene mean?

This kind of scene breaks the reality of the movie because it's done solely as an acknowledgement to the franchise rather than anything motivated by plot or character. And if that kind of acknowledgement is all you care about, then just have a lavish end-credits scene with clips from the previous movies. But if you're going to make it part of your story, and the scene on which you end your film, then it can't just come out of nowhere. If Dark Phoenix was entirely about the battle between Xavier and Magneto and how they've finally found a détente, then this scene makes sense. But without that conflict, it just becomes a lazy nod to earlier, better movies.

I think that makes some fair points. I guess they felt that Xavier and Magneto briefly joining forces towards the end was enough for that final little scene. But yeah, it's all a bit cobbled together and unconvincing.

Dr Rock

I saw it. Veers far too much from the source material. Jean Grey does not have a big nose.

peanutbutter

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 08, 2019, 12:06:54 AM
I sorely wish that there were Alamo Drafthouse in the UK.  Zero tolerance is the only way to deal with inconsiderate irritants in the audience.
To be clear, in case you dont know, the gimmick they have, as in the one that makes money, is that the whole cinema is designed in a way to allow people to order food and drinks from their seats during the films. The ones I've been in have handled it extremely well, but I suspect super pedantic types may be driven insane by the servers coming in and out with food and drinks throughout.

BritishHobo

How does the X-Men world work now? At the end of the time travel one, Wolverine pops his head in and sees that everything is well with the Xavier School for Extraordinary Kids, that Jean Grey is back alive, and everyone else is as they were in the continuity that started in 2003, making one neat, tied-up franchise. Only, now, it actually doesn't end up like that, because Xavier retires before in the 90s (although he and his pal are looking remarkably sprightly given that they're going to look old as fuck in 2003), Jean Grey has a different origin and does the Phoenix thing early and dies/stays that way?

OH WHO CARES

mothman

The future part of DoFP was set in the mid-2020s I think? So presumably when Wolverine wakes up in the altered future that's when he still is. Part of the point of all that was to be able to do "prequel" films with the younger cast, in the 70s, 80s and possibly even 90s. So either they think the DF coda doesn't contradict that, or they've just gone fuck it, and it's now yet another timeline - maybe Stewart and Jackman choosing to retire from their roles has caused that, given that happened after Logan and after Apocalypse.

As was said earlier, DoFP was intended to be almost the triumphant finale to a series of younger-cast X-movies; instead the studio decided to do it first. Pderhaps they hoped to have their cake and eat it, and always be able to call on Jackman and Stewart (and McKellen?) when needed...

Or maybe if this is to be the last of the current iteration of the X-Franchise prior to a full reboot and/or integration into the MCU, the studio just don't give a damn either way!

greenman

Quote from: Kelvin on June 07, 2019, 05:31:11 PM
Yes, it always pisses me off a bit when people slag off the X-Men universe, when Days of Future Past is significantly better than a large chunk of the Disney/Marvel films, and Logan is, imo, better than all of them. Even Deadpool 1 and 2 feels fresh and distinctive, regardless of whether the humour all works for you. At it's best, the X-Men universe has been very good indeed - even if the lows have been lower than Marvel.

I think you could argue the first two films really did set a lot of the base formula for superhero films that Marvel themselves ended up following, moreso than the Spiderman or Batman films that followed them in the 00's. That said I'v always felt they never quite grasped how to tell large scale stories with multiple characters in them in the fashion a lot of the MCU has. When I look back on the better entries what I remember tends to be one off scenes/set pieces rather than the films as a whole.

Phil_A

The already ludicrously mangled continuity of the X-Films was irreconcilably fucked once they decided the Singer X-Men and First Class X-Men were all part of the same timeline instead of the latter being a separate reboot as it was clearly intended to be. Not that I'm in any way invested in the series at this point, but I am morbidly fascinated by what a studio-mandated train-wreck it all is.

Also bollocks: the stinger at the end of The Wolverine when Magneto, Master of Magnet and Charles "Charlie" Charles turn up to annoy Wolverine at an airport and are all like "YEAH WE NEED YOUR HELP MATE IT'S ALL PROPER FUCKED". Except they don't need him yet because they haven't come up with the plan to send him back in time which according to the next movie happens ten years in the future, when they're fighting against a foe that has not yet been established. So they're basically saying "Come with us and do nothing for ten years while we wait for the situation to be sufficiently dire in order to facilitate the need for us to come up with an insanely convoluted scheme that we couldn't possibly know we would need you for."

johnlogan

It's disappointing, but not surprising, that this run of X-Men films will be ending in critical and commercial disgrace, with opening numbers in the toilet for this one.  This is the first one that I genuinely cannot be bothered watching at all.

Such a strange series. Progressed through the 2000s looking like it was circling the bowl, an unexpected revival with First Class (which I didn't think was that good, but fuck me if it hasn't been on TV every other week this decade), which was definitely a reboot... only for them to do another Wolverine with Hugh Jackman, and bring back the old cast for Days of Future Past.

It was clear that nobody really cared for the younger cast, given how Apocalypse performed (especially when you compare it to how Logan and the Deadpool films did), so I really don't know why they spent some $200 million doing another one of these, let alone to wholly give the reigns to a man heavily involved in one of the genre's more notorious disasters of recent years. Who knows?

johnlogan

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 07, 2019, 06:34:27 PM
Are they doing that internationally now? I know they really doubled down on it in the US over the past 5-10 years.

Man, between that, things like MoviePass and other free cinema ticket incentives (I get so many fucking free cinema tickets these days), and all the Netflix VC money bumping things... I can't help but feel the whole industry is just gonna abruptly crash at some point.

I believe Spielberg and Lucas predicted an industry meltdown on the horizon in 2013:

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steven-spielberg-predicts-implosion-film-567604

This was back before Netflix and the like were quite so ubiquitous, too. Whilst this attitude is easy to point and laugh at (and I believe it was at the time) when the new Avengers film makes a ludicrous amount of money, the big money is going to fewer films at this point, much more so than even 10 years ago. Even times of the year where decent mid-range adult pictures traditionally do well are now being flooded with tacky summer shite like Venom.

Disney, in particular, has been lucky enough that a flop like Dumbo's losses is easily covered by big Marvel movies on either side, but that can't last forever. We've already got to a point where Warner Bros lost heavily on Justice League, which was almost certainly intended to be their big film for that year. I don't think an industry crash is too far away.

Mister Six

To be fair, Justice League was shit.

Frankly, maybe a big crash is what's needed. Ploughing 200 mil into a film that has to make half a billion to be profitable is a fucking insane business model. Maybe seeing all of that collapse might force a return to happier days, when studios would have a variety of differently sized films, from cheapo Spike Lee joints to mid-sized thrillers to tentpole blockbusters, allowing for more experimentation and variety instead of endless studio-shaped megabudget mediocrities that aren't allowed to do anything interesting lest they repel the imaginary shitmunching dullards that are supposed to comprise the majority of every audience in the world.

Quote from: greenman on June 08, 2019, 11:14:03 PM
I think you could argue the first two films really did set a lot of the base formula for superhero films that Marvel themselves ended up following, moreso than the Spiderman or Batman films that followed them in the 00's. That said I'v always felt they never quite grasped how to tell large scale stories with multiple characters in them in the fashion a lot of the MCU has. When I look back on the better entries what I remember tends to be one off scenes/set pieces rather than the films as a whole.

Yeah, the X-films are mostly notable for proving that cinema audiences would flock to see A: superheroes they hadn't really heard of before; and B: superhero movies with a bit of edge and thought put into them. They were revolutionary for that, and kicked off this whole 20-year superhero fad, but didn't have much more in them than that. And as the stuff that followed did much the same stuff, some of that initial brilliance can be hard to see in retrospect.

The next big step was the MCU, of course, which showed that audiences would become invested in massive fictional universes too, even ones populated largely by characters they were previously unfamiliar with, because the universe itself would be the pull. But nobody since then has managed to replicate that success, because the other studios' producers lack the foresight and planning ability necessary to make it work. Possibly no one ever will.

St_Eddie

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 08, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
To be clear, in case you dont know, the gimmick they have, as in the one that makes money, is that the whole cinema is designed in a way to allow people to order food and drinks from their seats during the films.

Oh, well, in that case; my local cinema serves hot food too.  I always respected the Alamo Drafthouse chain of cinemas more for their zero tolerance towards noise making cunts.  I guess cunts with smelly hot food is okay in their eyes.  I suppose I'd take that over talking throughout films and checking phones every five minutes.  The lesser of two evils, I guess.  Having said that, on the subject of hot food...

Quote from: St_Eddie on December 23, 2017, 02:11:55 PM
I've got a mate who I went to the cinema with to watch Blade Runner 2049.  Never again will I be watching a film on the silver screen with him.  Personally, I never eat food at the cinema because I know how annoying it can be to those around you but my friend has no such qualms.  Our local cinema serves hot food.  He ordered some garlic bread, which was then duly delivered to him, once the film had already started.  The disruption of this was bad enough but then the room also began to stink of garlic.  He eats with his mouth open, so the sound was unbearable too.

He also purchased a family sized bucket of popcorn, which he immediately started to consume after slurping down his garlic bread.  It was such a large amount of popcorn, that it lasted a full hour into the film, even though he was continuously munching his way through it nonstop.  Mouth a-gaped and producing an incredibly loud and annoying sound with every bite.  The last 10 minutes of his incessant popcorn eating was the worst part because then the sound of him rustling around the bottom of the bucket got introduced into the equation.  Blade Runner 2049 has some very quiet and atmospheric moments.  During these moments, the sound of him shoveling food into his mouth echoed throughout the screening room, now surely filled to the brim with an incredibly annoyed audience.

Furthermore, despite me reminding him to turn his phone off before the film started, he didn't and of course, a friend phoned him during the last act of the film's plot.  He actually answered it!  "Sorry, mate.  I'm at the cinema.  I'll phone you back later".  I angrily whispered for him to turn his phone off.  His reply?  "I can't".  I didn't challenge him on this frankly baffling and infuriating statement because I didn't want to disrupt the other patrons any further by continuing to talk.

The whole ordeal was horrendous and my mate showed absolutely zero shame throughout.  He's a nice guy with a good heart but possesses a horrible lack of awareness when it comes to cinema etiquette and having consideration for others.  The levels of embarrassment I suffered through association were off the chart!  I kept putting my face in my hand and shaking my head throughout his behaviour, to at least try and show the other people sat behind me that I was just as annoyed as they were, so that they hopefully wouldn't hate me too.

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 08, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
...I suspect super pedantic types may be driven insane by the servers coming in and out with food and drinks throughout.

Guilty as charged.

Phil_A

Quote from: johnlogan on June 09, 2019, 01:44:39 AM
I believe Spielberg and Lucas predicted an industry meltdown on the horizon in 2013:

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steven-spielberg-predicts-implosion-film-567604

This was back before Netflix and the like were quite so ubiquitous, too. Whilst this attitude is easy to point and laugh at (and I believe it was at the time) when the new Avengers film makes a ludicrous amount of money, the big money is going to fewer films at this point, much more so than even 10 years ago. Even times of the year where decent mid-range adult pictures traditionally do well are now being flooded with tacky summer shite like Venom.

Disney, in particular, has been lucky enough that a flop like Dumbo's losses is easily covered by big Marvel movies on either side, but that can't last forever. We've already got to a point where Warner Bros lost heavily on Justice League, which was almost certainly intended to be their big film for that year. I don't think an industry crash is too far away.

I agree, I've been thinking for a long time there will come a point where people are sick of the Marvel formula and will stop going to see those kinds of films. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the next round of MCU movies are out, now that they've lost several of the key stars and two of the key directors, will we see a drop-off?

Disney seem like they're too big to fail at this point, but it pays to remember they've had periods in the last forty years where a run of successive flops have really damaged the companies' fortunes. It could happen again.

I think eventually big studio superhero movies will go the way of the likes of Westerns or Musicals that were once the bread and butter of the entire industry.