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Brand "battery acid" joke row

Started by Fambo Number Mive, June 12, 2019, 08:15:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Jumblegraws

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 01:52:59 PM
One of the things that bothers me about this thread is that so many are seemingly giving Brand's joke a free pass simply because they don't like Farage.  If a right-wing male stand-up comic, made a joke about their fantasy of beating up, raping and then finally yes, chucking acid in the face of a left-leaning woman who you personally like, would you be so quick to jump to the defense of the comic's right to make a joke, much less revel in the concept of it?
How is that hypothetical equivalent though? Putting aside the addition of rape into the equation, with the battery acid thing at least we have the milkshaking context to work off of and I think that Brand can fairly say she was trying to induce a shock laugh by juxtaposing a puerile form of protest of which Farage and co have been the subject with the image a horrific assault. I don't think you can prove double-standards here with rhetorical questions about unpleasant right-wingers saying things without furnishing a comparable context.

The joke doesn't work for me because the reality of people lobbing corrosives at other people looms too largely over any shock humour. Maybe if she'd picked something more outlandish like molten lava or hyena piss or something it would have seemed funny to me.

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:28:26 PM
I'm not judging her as a political commentator or a professional comedian, I'm judging her as a human being.

If I were to judge her as a professional comedian, then she'd fail miserably.  As it is, she simply fucked up as a human being in this particular instance.  I don't condemn her for it, but I'll make no bones for her ill-advised joke either

I mean, she literally says outrageous things she doesn't mean for a living. It's simply not equivalent to a right wing commentator barking about how they would rape someone. At all.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 01:52:59 PM
... I hate Farage but my ethical stand point on the matter doesn't suddenly alter, simply because I don't like someone.  I'll berate anybody for stepping out of line, regardless of how I feel about that person or the target who they were attacking.  To do any less would be to display double standards and hypocrisy....

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 14, 2019, 05:51:27 PM
... Just like people with dwarfism are not a type of human being.

Mr Ethical there.

Quote from: Jumblegraws on June 16, 2019, 02:30:22 PM
The joke doesn't work for me because the reality of people lobbing corrosives at other people looms too largely over any shock humour. Maybe if she'd picked something more outlandish like molten lava or hyena piss or something it would have seemed funny to me.

You could say that about jokes about rape, aids, homelessness, cancer, racism, or any other number of subjects that draw on things that happen in real life. I'll still don't think that's a reason to not say the joke or to say she's actually suggesting people go out and do it, that's too far of a stretch.

St_Eddie

In making my joke, did I single out a particular person with dwarfism?  No I did not.  The two therefore, do not equate.  If you're going to pull quotes of mine, then I can do likewise...

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 12:57:30 PM
I think that a joke can be made about anything; yes, even acid attacks.  I wouldn't necessarily find such a joke funny, personally speaking but that's irrelevant.  I fundamentally think that one should be able to joke about absolutely anything.

However, there is a difference between making a joke about acid attacks and actually including a living person as a target of an acid attack within your joke and doing so in a public space, in front of an audience.  For me, that crosses the line between acceptable and unacceptable.

BeardFaceMan

Ah so because you attacked a group of people and not a single person that makes it ok? If Brand had said to throw acid in the faces of every MP that would have been fine? And dropping rape into your little analogy does equate?

Jumblegraws

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on June 16, 2019, 02:34:31 PM
You could say that about jokes about rape, aids, homelessness, cancer, racism, or any other number of subjects that draw on things that happen in real life. I'll still don't think that's a reason to not say the joke or to say she's actually suggesting people go out and do it, that's too far of a stretch.
Yes, I agree. I just wanted to go on the record about my own reaction to the joke.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:37:09 PM
However, there is a difference between making a joke about acid attacks and actually including a living person as a target of an acid attack within your joke and doing so in a public space, in front of an audience.  For me, that crosses the line between acceptable and unacceptable.

Where else are professional comedians supposed to tell jokes? So you're against using living people in jokes if it implies any kind of harm or negativity about them? Other than dwarves, obviously.

BlodwynPig

Dump a vat of sulphuric acid over the realm of comedy

Squirting citric acid in the gammy eye of humour

St_Eddie

Just to give other people some context here (you can check out the thread in question, for further context), because I'm being misrepresenting here...

Quote from: Replies From View on June 14, 2019, 04:18:18 PM
Is a Rolo mini not a kind of Rolo?

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 14, 2019, 05:51:27 PM
No, it is not.  Just like people with dwarfism are not a type of human being.

The joke there is that Rolo Minis are quite clearly a type of Rolo, just as people with dwarfism are quite clearly human beings.  I was using a ridiculous and patently untrue analogy, whereupon I was the butt of the joke.  How on Earth anyone could equate that to a joke where someone suggests that it would be good to chuck acid in the face of an actual specific person is beyond me.  It's disingenuous, goading and pathetic to have done so, quite frankly.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Just to give other people some context here (you can check out the thread in question, for further context), because I'm being misrepresenting here...

The joke there is that Rolo Minis are quite clearly a type of Rolo, just as people with dwarfism are quite clearly human beings.  I was using a ridiculous and patently untrue analogy, whereupon I was the butt of the joke.  How on Earth anyone could equate that to a joke where someone suggests that it would be good to chuck acid in the face of an actual specific person is beyond me.  Pathetic, quite frankly.

She didnt suggest it, she was a professional comedian on a comedy show making a crap joke about it, the suggestive part is coming from you. Whereas you are not a professional comedian not on a comedy show but on a public forum saying people with dwarvism are not being human beings. How is it you are clearly making a joke but Brand isn't?

St_Eddie

Quote from: Jumblegraws on June 16, 2019, 02:30:22 PM
How is that hypothetical equivalent though?

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on June 16, 2019, 02:32:26 PM
I mean, she literally says outrageous things she doesn't mean for a living. It's simply not equivalent to a right wing commentator barking about how they would rape someone. At all.

I went for polar opposites in order to illustrate my point.  Therefore; left-wing becomes right-wing; man becomes woman.  I then added beating and raping to the hypothetical joke as a means to demonstrate that if it's okay to joke about throwing acid in the face of a specific target, then it should surely follow that it's okay to joke about beating and raping a specific women.

St_Eddie


BeardFaceMan

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:51:52 PM
I went for polar opposites in order to illustrate my point.  Therefore; left-wing becomes right-wing; man becomes woman.  I then added beating and raping to the hypothetical joke as a means to demonstrate that if it's okay to joke about throwing acid in the face of a specific target, then it should surely follow that it's okay to joke about beating and raping a specific women.

You are right, it is the polar opposite, in that joking about substituting milkshake for acid while referencing a real-life incident that has already happened on a comedy show is nothing like joking about the future beating and raping and throwing acid in the face of a specific woman.

Still not sure how it 'surely follows' that beating and raping a woman is the next logical step from throwing acid in the face of a man.

Jumblegraws

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:51:52 PM
I went for polar opposites in order to illustrate my point.  Therefore; left-wing becomes right-wing; man becomes woman; and I added beating and raping as a means to demonstrate that if it's okay to joke about throwing acid in the face of a specific target, then it should surely follow that it's okay to joke about beating and raping a specific women.
But that ignores the context of Brand's joke (a riff on milkshaking), in much the same way that someone would have to ignore the context of your rolo mini joke to conclude that you were genuinely trivialising or advocating prejudice against a minority group.

I'm self-conscious about that odd run-in we had on that "negative stereotypes" thread the other day, St Eddie, so just want to be clear than I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything.

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 16, 2019, 02:51:52 PM
I went for polar opposites in order to illustrate my point.  Therefore; left-wing becomes right-wing; man becomes woman.  I then added beating and raping to the hypothetical joke as a means to demonstrate that if it's okay to joke about throwing acid in the face of a specific target, then it should surely follow that it's okay to joke about beating and raping a specific women.

Jo Brand isn't a 'left wing' commentator. She's just someone who says occasionally funny shit for a living. This isn't a left vs. right thing, that's buying entirely too much into the disingenuous framework imposed by the faux-outrage

bgmnts

Arguments aside though, someone SHOULD throw battery acid into Nigel Farage's face.

neveragain

#106
Quote from: BeardFaceMan on June 16, 2019, 01:24:37 PM
So controversial jokes need to be intelligent and objectively funny to be ok? So if you see Jerry Sadowitz saying 'p**i' over and over and think his jokes are poor then that's unacceptable and he's inciting racial violence and encouraging people to use that word, but if you find it funny then that controversy disappears and it's ok?

Yep. It has to be funny first off (which is obviously subjective but comedy is that by its very nature) but context is everything. That's how I can enjoy comedies such as South Park, Bottom, Monty Python, Always Sunny, Duckman, Peep Show, Brass Eye, the League of Gentlemen while not giving time of day to the likes of Bernard Manning, Royston Vasey, Jim Davidson etc.

Dr Rock

I can't believe anyone could've laughed at the joke, seeing as they would have to have avoided all social media where a million people said the exact or very similar thing immediately.

sponk

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on June 16, 2019, 02:32:26 PM
I mean, she literally says outrageous things she doesn't mean for a living. It's simply not equivalent to a right wing commentator barking about how they would rape someone. At all.

I don't know if this argument holds up because she chose to say it about a man who's hated by a large part of her audience and herself. If she'd made a similar joke about a beloved figure like D Attenborough, then I think it could be written off as absurd and outrageous and obviously not malicious. As it stands you've got to consider the possibility that she was at least partly serious.

sponk

Quote from: bgmnts on June 16, 2019, 03:08:03 PM
Arguments aside though, someone SHOULD throw battery acid into Nigel Farage's face.

I hope you get arrested for this. There are laws against improper disposal of battery acid!

Quote from: sponk on June 16, 2019, 03:27:59 PM
I don't know if this argument holds up because she chose to say it about a man who's hated by a large part of her audience and herself. If she'd made a similar joke about a beloved figure like D Attenborough, then I think it could be written off as absurd and outrageous and obviously not malicious. As it stands you've got to consider the possibility that she was at least partly serious.

still not equivalent

Lisa Jesusandmarychain


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Jumblegraws on June 16, 2019, 02:30:22 PM
The joke doesn't work for me because the reality of people lobbing corrosives at other people looms too largely over any shock humour. Maybe if she'd picked something more outlandish like molten lava or hyena piss or something it would have seemed funny to me.

Yes, I agree with this. I have great respect for Brand but I think she fucked up here.

My own feeling is that someone needs to open a lost Ark near Farage.

idunnosomename

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 16, 2019, 05:33:21 PM


My own feeling is that someone needs to open a lost Ark near Farage.
Outrageous. Implying someone is a paranormal-mad Nazi whose face should be melted off their skull in a memorable visual effect. I believe in free speech but this going too far!!!

sponk

An issue I have with the gag that I haven't seen anyone else raise is that acid attacks disproportionately happen to men and women of colour, and Brand is neither of those things. Seeing a privileged white woman joking about something that almost certainly won't happen to her, but could happen to any ethnic minority makes me uneasy. I remember having this conversation on here with someone about their use of the word lynching in a casual way and I think the principle can be applied to acid attacks too.

alan nagsworth

some of the opinions in this thread are like acid being thrown in the face of my brain

yeah some real galaxy brain shit coming out here

Jumblegraws

Quote from: sponk on June 16, 2019, 05:44:16 PM
An issue I have with the gag that I haven't seen anyone else raise is that acid attacks disproportionately happen to men and women of colour, and Brand is neither of those things. Seeing a privileged white woman joking about something that almost certainly won't happen to her, but could happen to any ethnic minority makes me uneasy. I remember having this conversation on here with someone about their use of the word lynching in a casual way and I think the principle can be applied to acid attacks too.
I'm no mind reader, but something about the way she specifically said battery acid makes me think Brand did a bit of a Danny Baker and didn't actually make the link between what she said and the uptick of acid attacks, she just rooted around in her mental directory of nasty substances and picked out something that is also sort of mundane and thus suited to her bored demeanour. Or maybe that's just massively overthinking it.

phantom_power

Surely the point of the joke, or rather the reason it is meant to be funny (regardless of whether you think it IS funny), is that battery acid is an outrageous level above milkshake and an unreasonable escalation. It needs to be offensive to work as a joke. Everyone knows this, and they know it doesn't condone the act. It also doesn't normalise it because the point is that it isn't a normal response

BlodwynPig

Quotea riff on milkshaking

Days are gone