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March 28, 2024, 02:37:56 PM

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Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge

Started by Deanjam, June 13, 2019, 04:35:22 PM

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lipsink

Quote from: Malcy on February 27, 2020, 01:39:35 PM
They really shouldn't have put Simm in the S10 trailer. That was ridiculous. I've seen people on other boards absolutely raging that there's been few spoilers for the Chibnall run. Like proper angry about it. As if they are entitled to know everything before it happens.

They must've known that it would be leaked anyway. They sorta surprised everyone anyway when it was revealed that the Master was that other character in disguise.

Cloud

Quote from: Thomas on February 27, 2020, 12:30:18 PM
If major spoilers for The Timeless Children became available, how many here would read them? I read spoilers for Fugitive of the Judoon, which turned out to be correct. Wasn't really bothered. I used to desperately avoid spoilers.

I usually avoid spoilers and even "spoilery trailers" like the coronavirus, but have been less arsed with DW ones recently and even dug around the leaks.  I think it's a combination of trying to prepare myself for how shit the reveal / screwing over of canon is going to be (i.e. lack of faith in Chibbers) combined with generally not particularly caring as I'm not heavily invested in this 'fam' (*boke*) or much of what's happened since the handover of the show.

Quote from: lipsink on February 27, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
I think she was a child originally in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of The Moon and then regenerated into a child version of Mel (at the end of Day of the Moon) and then into Alex Kingston's River Song in Let's Kill Hitler.

Mels says (or at least implies) that she'd regenerated into a toddler at the end of Day of the Moon. Before that regeneration, the conversation with the tramp suggests that she had regenerated at least once before that as she's quite sanguine about the whole ordeal of dying and being "alright".

Mango Chimes

Quote from: Replies From View on February 27, 2020, 12:18:48 PM
Time differential when the Doctor meets previous selves; the fifth Doctor was markedly older when they met.  So presumably if they'd whisked off together to Gallifrey it would been as per the Tenth Doctor's present rather than the Fifth Doctor's.

That's just my idea though and of course it's daft, but it has to be.

Did Time Lords cross each others timelines often? Certainly in the new series, it seems there's a "clock in San Dimas" rule to Gallifrey and other Time Lords. When the Doctor bumps into the Master in the present or the far future, they always seem to be linear in relation to the Doctor's life (with the exception of the multi-Master story, which is as much of an anomaly as a multi-Doctor one).

jamiefairlie

Quote from: Mango Chimes on February 27, 2020, 11:47:15 PM
Did Time Lords cross each others timelines often? Certainly in the new series, it seems there's a "clock in San Dimas" rule to Gallifrey and other Time Lords. When the Doctor bumps into the Master in the present or the far future, they always seem to be linear in relation to the Doctor's life (with the exception of the multi-Master story, which is as much of an anomaly as a multi-Doctor one).

It seems they can and do cross each other's timelines frequently (at least the BF ones do and they seem to be canon-esque). As for Gallifrey, well they all showed up to save the day on the TV episode so it seems it's also possible but that implies that all the Doctors are aware of the Time War and its implications, so why don't they use that fore-knowledge more effectively? It's a temporal minefield.

Mister Six

Finally got around to watching the episode. Not read all the responses yet, but this one chimed with me:

Quote from: TwinPeaks on February 23, 2020, 10:04:51 PM
Nothing happened. Why did they not start at Ian McElhinney so they could just move onto something interesting, instead of spending most of the episode going from A to B with literally nothing else driving things? There are meant to be plot beats and things. Cybermen having a war isn't interesting in itself.

Aye. When the episode starts they're running away from Cybermen. When the episode ends, they're running away from Cybermen (but also Gallifrey and The Master are there). Everything in between bar the Irish bits was basically a big waste of time. As TwinPeaks says, the notion of the Cyberman war isn't intrinsically interesting, and the stakes (we have to save, er, four people! Even though there's probably a load of others on the other side of the universe!) are vague and not very compelling.

King Cybe is a brilliant cunt, yes, and I liked bits and pieces (especially the Doctor's petty "Who's winning now?" speech while she fiddled with the engines), but all the supporting cast are the usual Chibnall nobodies, and the main story is just a total void. As seen in Spyfall, he seems to think that just bouncing from one setpiece to the next is the same as having a story. Maybe Moffat did that from time to time, but he also filled the script with jokes and great characters, and there was at least something approaching a plot, rather than everybody just walking from one location to the next, pursued by explosions.

Also, starting out with humanity all but wiped out is yet another instance of The Doctor seeming really, really shit at her job. You could at least start off with her trying to stop the Cyber King and failing, or something, instead of having her turn up after countless billions have already died. Especially as she's the reason he's able to kill everyone in the first place.

Far from the worst thing he's ever written, but there better be some good stuff next week (although he's got plenty to fit in - Master, "Timeless Child", Ruth Doctor, what happened to the escapees, Cyber King...).

Cerys

It's almost as if the Doc has been working for the Master all this time.  How long did she say she'd known O?  So many things she's done that we've been criticising as 'not the Doctor' - what if she isn't entirely the Doctor, and the reason Jack wasn't able to teleport her in was that his tech couldn't home in on her?  If he'd been successful, maybe he'd have noticed - which is why they've had no contact so far.

Johnny Yesno

Let me get this straight: Doctor Ruth is the real Doctor; the Doctor is actually the Master; the Master is O, who has just got a bit carried away; Graham and Yaz are each other, and Ryan is still Ryan because he can barely manage to be himself let alone anyone else.

Cerys

No, the Doctor isn't the Master.  The Doctor is somehow being influenced by the Master.


pigamus

I like the idea of the Doctor being the Master and vice versa. Would have been cool had Missy been forced to swap bodies with Capaldi for a season. Michelle Gomez just has that x factor that Jodie Whittaker doesn't.

Mister Six

The more I think about it, the more I'm annoyed by The Doctor causing this war. Not so much that it happened, really, but the total lack of dramatic weight.

Captain Jack travelled through time - risking death from whatever was following him - to warn her, but she gave Cybercunt the mercury thing anyway. That should have been a massive moment, one that was built to through the episode and agonised over. But it just kind of gets tossed off.

Which was fine at the time, because I assumed this episode was going to be about her trying to stop the war and (probably) failing, which would serve to build up her emnity against Cybercunt and - importantly - drive home how stupid she was in the first place (how many Shelley-level authors were among the billions killed in the Cyberwar?).

Instead she turns up after pretty much everyone is dead, treats the announcement of that news as kind of a joke, fails to save half the remaining handful of survivors, and wanders about on a spaceship a bit.

Grah! She wiped out almost all human life in the universe because of the effect killing an author could have had on the 21st century. That's a bigger fucking deal than Gallifrey, FFS. And yet it's barely addressed.

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on February 29, 2020, 02:45:41 PM
Let me get this straight: Doctor Ruth is the real Doctor; the Doctor is actually the Master; the Master is O, who has just got a bit carried away; Graham and Yaz are each other, and Ryan is still Ryan because he can barely manage to be himself let alone anyone else.

Ryan is Kamelion after he fixed the shape-changing chip but broke the voice modulator.

Can't believe people were defending him upthread. He's pretty much exactly as bad as those lads from Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, who also sounded like they were just about remembering the lines they'd just learned, or reading them off cleverly secreted cue cards. Worse in context, because he's a full-time regular cast member rather than a poor actor hired for peanuts to save cash during an FX-heavy season. How did he get past the screen tests? Did they just hire him because he's really good looking?

Thomas

#2742
Mister Six, I empathise with your feelings about the moral weight of the Cybergenocide.

I wonder if the Master's place in the timeline will be addressed. He 'took the identity' of O, so beneath the current face the Master's real appearance might be concealed. He could be from anywhen (post-Fourth Doctor, at least). Fingers crossed they get Eric Roberts in.

It would've been nice if Sacha Dhawan had appeared in series 11 as O (secretly the Master the whole time, of course). If nothing else they could have seeded the 'secretly can't sprint' reveal.

Cerys


QuoteFingers crossed they get Eric Roberts in.

Given Eric Roberts recent acting career, I genuinely reckon he'd be up for it.

notjosh

Quote from: Thomas on February 29, 2020, 03:45:52 PMIt would've been nice if Sacha Dhawan had appeared in series 11 as O (secretly the Master the whole time, of course). If nothing else they could have seeded the 'secretly can't sprint' reveal.


Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Mister Six on February 29, 2020, 03:33:45 PM
Some astute points about the slapdash shitness of Chibnall's writing

I agree with all of that 100%. It's sort of fascinating the way Chibnall, a successful TV dramatist, just doesn't seem to really think about the scripts he cobbles together. There's no internal logic, no depth, no consistency, just a bunch of stuff happening on an entirely superficial level.

He is, at best, capable of writing an entertaining episode of Doctor Who, albeit one that disintegrates the moment you stop to think about it. That's not uncommon in the history of DW, of course, but Chibnall is unique in the sense that he's a showrunner and - presumably - script editor who doesn't seem to care if his stuff makes any sense or not.

Actually, that's unfair. I don't think he sits in front of his laptop going, "Yeah, this shit will do." He's not that cynical. The problem is he can't think beyond the conceptualisation of ostensibly 'cool ideas'. As far as he's concerned, stringing enough of them together and throwing them in our faces qualifies as good, exciting drama. Which it can do, to an extent, but only in more skilled hands - hands capable of moulding those ideas with a bit of wit, heart and imagination. You know, like RTD and Moffat used to do when they were fully on form.

He probably will manage to tie everything together on Sunday, but I suspect it will be satisfying only insomuch as it'll all make some kind of glib, mechanical sense. "You see, I introduced this, which then led to this, and then this happened. Job done."

As I say, I don't think Chibnall writes like that because he's cynical and lazy, it's just the best he can do. He'll never rise above his inherent mediocrity.

Oh well!

Mister Six

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on February 29, 2020, 04:38:44 PM
The problem is he can't think beyond the conceptualisation of ostensibly 'cool ideas'. As far as he's concerned, stringing enough of them together and throwing them in our faces qualifies as good, exciting drama. Which it can do, to an extent, but only in more skilled hands - hands capable of moulding those ideas with a bit of wit, heart and imagination. You know, like RTD and Moffat used to do when they were fully on form.

Even when they were off their game too, to be honest. What are the most derided RTD and Moff scripts? Love & Monsters and Beast Below? And yet the former is funny and conceptually adventurous, and the latter has some great ideas (Amy's videotape to herself is a fantastic moment) and that brilliant "no human has anything to say to me today" speech.

Either one is better than Woman Who Fell to Earth or Spyfall Pt 1, which are Chibnall's best scripts by far.

Johnny Yesno


Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Mister Six on February 29, 2020, 05:07:26 PM
Even when they were off their game too, to be honest. What are the most derided RTD and Moff scripts? Love & Monsters and Beast Below? And yet the former is funny and conceptually adventurous, and the latter has some great ideas (Amy's videotape to herself is a fantastic moment) and that brilliant "no human has anything to say to me today" speech.

Either one is better than Woman Who Fell to Earth or Spyfall Pt 1, which are Chibnall's best scripts by far.

That's it, yes. Even subpar RTD and Moffat episodes* are richer than Chibnall's best efforts. We all know that, but the gulf in quality is so vast it bears repeating.

* Love & Monsters gets an unfairly rough ride. As you say, it's a funny, innovative episode. It's RTD treating Doctor Who as an anthology series, he was trying something different. Same goes for Turn Left and Moff's Blink. Chibnall's attempt at a Twilight Zone/Inside No. 9 episode of Who would probably involve Ryan's dad buying a sentient microwave from a stereotypical Chinatown junkshop.

The Roofdog

If Chibnall ever wrote something with one tenth of the humanity or heart of Love & Monsters I would shit out both of my kidneys in shock.

Lots of RTD stories don't make much sense. The point is he brought so much else to the table. Chibnall literally combines the worst of RTD's traits with the worst of Moffat's.

Norton Canes

Just noticed Sunday's is 70 minutes long

70 MINUTES

Gonna seem like forever

Thomas

Jesus. That's only seven minutes short of The Day of the Doctor.

Hopefully they managed to film a few more scenes with Barrowman for the finale. Just to lighten the mood amid all of Chibnall's canon-smashing revelations about the Time Lords, the Doctor, the Cybermen, and the washbowl in the time rotor.1

[1] When humans evolved themselves into Time Lords, they built the first TARDISes out of household items. This revelation was seeded in Resolution when they used a microwave to kill a Dalek. It's also why a gang of sentient dishcloths were the first creatures in the Doctor's entire life to mention the 'Timeless Child'.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Norton Canes on February 29, 2020, 07:01:07 PM
Just noticed Sunday's is 70 minutes long

70 MINUTES

Gonna seem like forever

An extra 20 minutes of Ryan staring blankly at a light switch.

The Roofdog

I'd put money on neither Barrowman nor Ruth being in the finale. It's that new kind of fanservice they have now where the showrunner just tells the fans what they actually wanted to see.

Mango Chimes

I'm dreading how the refugee metaphor's going to play out.

Thomas

Quote from: Mango Chimes on February 29, 2020, 08:42:50 PM
I'm dreading how the refugee metaphor's going to play out.

Remember: the system's fine.

I wonder how the Doctor will dispose of the Master this week. Drop him off in the middle of an EDL rally?

Cerys

Is the Timeless Child so-called because they don't have a clock or watch?

mjwilson

Quote from: The Roofdog on February 29, 2020, 08:06:26 PM
I'd put money on neither Barrowman nor Ruth being in the finale. It's that new kind of fanservice they have now where the showrunner just tells the fans what they actually wanted to see.

I'm not expecting Barrowman, they obviously worked so hard to keep his presence a secret that I'd be surprised if he shows up (unless it's just in a room on his own). I assume Ruth will show up though.

Quote from: Cerys on February 29, 2020, 09:04:56 PM
Is the Timeless Child so-called because they don't have a clock or watch?

No, because they could look up the time on their iphone.