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Three thoughts about Pulp Fiction

Started by kalowski, June 21, 2019, 11:26:53 PM

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QDRPHNC

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 23, 2019, 12:56:33 PM
Seems stupid for either of them to have left the apartment and wandered down the street to get coffee if they are seriously expecting Butch to return. We see Vince is quite careless but Marcellus should maybe know better. Bring a packed lunch.

Probably Marcellus was like, right, I'm going out to get food. You sit there with your gun pointed at the door. But as we've established, Vincent isn't very bright, so he decided to put his gun on the counter and go for a shit.

He was also taking a shit when all the stuff went down in the diner later.

Hard to fathom anyone not liking Pulp Fiction, although I suppose if you came to it later, I can see it. As a teenager who fell in love with Reservoir Dogs, seeing PF on the big screen for the first time was utterly electrifying. It showed me what movies were capable of. 

a duncandisorderly


Dr Rock

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 01:30:10 PM
Probably Marcellus was like, right, I'm going out to get food. You sit there with your gun pointed at the door. But as we've established, Vincent isn't very bright, so he decided to put his gun on the counter and go for a shit.

Well I wasn't saying it was not smart for only one of them to be in Butch's apartment, I'm saying if you wander up and down the street with coffee you may get seen, which is indeed what happened.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 23, 2019, 12:56:33 PM
Marcellus should maybe know better

Marcellus should have fuckin' better known better.

mothman

LA is huge. HUGE. Even a man with Marcellus' connections, there's going to be only so much he could do. Especially since the sensible thing for Butch to have done would be to get out of the city straightaway (so quite why he spends a night in a motel I don't know). So Marcellus night put some men on the train stations, bus stations, airports just in case. And watch Butch's house - even better, wait IN Butch's house. So of course he does that himself - far more comfortable than sitting in Departures at LAX or in a car outside the bus station. But it's a bullshit job, really, just ticking the boxes - Butch, he gone, why would he come back home? So after an hour or two, he thinks, the hell with this, I'll go down the road to get coffee and food. After all, Butch isn't really going to turn up at his own house is he? So he can't believe it when he sees Butch, because despite being there in case he appears, he knows logically he won't.

kalowski

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 01:30:10 PM
Probably Marcellus was like, right, I'm going out to get food. You sit there with your gun pointed at the door. But as we've established, Vincent isn't very bright, so he decided to put his gun on the counter and go for a shit.

He was also taking a shit when all the stuff went down in the diner later.

Hard to fathom anyone not liking Pulp Fiction, although I suppose if you came to it later, I can see it. As a teenager who fell in love with Reservoir Dogs, seeing PF on the big screen for the first time was utterly electrifying. It showed me what movies were capable of.
I completely loved it when it came out. I saw it at the cinema and came out floating on electric air. But it's been a case of rapidly diminishing returns. I just don't see what I liked about it.

buzby

#66
Butch shooting Vincent in his apartment is not an involuntary action - after Vincent comes out of the toilet, they stand looking at each other while Butch has the MAC-10 trained on him (having heard the sound of Vincent using the flush). He pulls the trigger when the Pop Tarts he put in the toaster pop and distracts Vincent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnggTh7EHro
Vincent's own gun is a chromed Auto Ordnance M1911 pistol with pearl grips, but this time he doesn't get a chance to draw it.

In the next scene where Butch and Marcellus spot each other, Butch has just driven past the front of his apartment complex and pulls up to the junction at the end of the block, where Marcellus is crossing from right to left (towards the side of the street the apartment block id on) carrying the food. Although the trivia track on the DVD says that the MAC-10 in the apartment was Marcellus', he also has a Smith & Wesson 4506 pistol in a shoulder holster, which he then uses to try and shoot at Butch after he runs him over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DCTCZcFkPs

Quote from: icehaven on June 23, 2019, 11:42:20 AM
See I don't interpret him going back to save Marcellus as an act of conscience at all, I see it as Willis seeing an opportunity to get himself out of Marcellus' bad books so he doesn't have to spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder. I've not read around the film enough to know if that's really supposed to be the case but I've seen it a few times and always have the same thought. Could be both reasons I guess, although apart from anything else Marcellus is a violent gangster, is it really that heroic to save him?
The script portrays Butch's actions as an act of conscience, rather than getting himself off the hook with Marcellus:
Quote
              INT. PAWNSHOP – DAY

               Butch sneaks to the door.

               On the counter is a big set of keys with a large Z connected
               to the ring. Grabbing them, he's about to go out when he
               stops and listens to the hillbilly psychopaths having their
               way with Marsellus.

               Butch decides for the life of him, he can't leave anybody in
               a situation like that. Se he begins rooting around the
               pawnshop for a weapon to bash those hillbillies' heads in
               with.

               He picks up a big destructive-looking hammer, then discards
               it: Not destructive enough. He picks up a chainsaw, thinks
               about it for a moment, then puts it back. Next, a large
               Louisville slugger he tries on for size. But then he spots
               what he's been looking for:

               A Samurai sword.

lipsink

Is no-one going to mention Bruce Willis' knob then?

mothman

Quote from: buzby on June 23, 2019, 04:39:31 PM
Butch shooting Vincent in his apartment is not an involuntary action - after Vincent comes out of the toilet, they stand looking at each other while Butch has the MAC-10 trained on him (having heard the sound of Vincent using the flush). He pulls the trigger when the Pop Tarts he put in the toaster pop and distracts Vincent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnggTh7EHro
Vincent's own gun is a chromed Auto Ordnance M1911 pistol with pearl grips, but this time he doesn't get a chance to draw it.

I don't think you can say that for certain. The film cuts from the "toaster pastries" (ugh) popping up directly to Butch shooting Vincent. There's no reaction shot from Travolta to the noise of the toaster. It may be that it's been left deliberately ambiguous - after all despite his despicable acts and attitude, the film has gone some way towards establishing Vincent as the closest thing to the "star" of the film, and yet another contender (and a relatively more sympathetic one) machine-guns him as he's coming out of the toilet.

kidsick5000

If nothing else - and due to its over-saturated use- the use of DickDale was inspired. Being in the cinema when Misirlou kicked in. Damn. It was amazing.
There's a reason the world and his Wife used it at every opportunity for the past 25 years

mr. logic

Quote from: a duncandisorderly on June 23, 2019, 09:11:15 AM
bruce willis is the only decent human being in the whole flick, though I've some sympathy for tim roth's character.

He's dismissive about killing the other boxer though.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: mothman on June 23, 2019, 05:43:31 PM
I don't think you can say that for certain. The film cuts from the "toaster pastries" (ugh) popping up directly to Butch shooting Vincent. There's no reaction shot from Travolta to the noise of the toaster. It may be that it's been left deliberately ambiguous - after all despite his despicable acts and attitude, the film has gone some way towards establishing Vincent as the closest thing to the "star" of the film, and yet another contender (and a relatively more sympathetic one) machine-guns him as he's coming out of the toilet.

But though, doesn't Butch recognize Vincent as the guy who sassed him in the bar before the fight? You ain't my friend, palooka.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I saw a thing recently that said Butch is the one who keys Vincent's car after the sassing occurs. I can't remember if it was a confirmed part of the script, or just speculation, but I'm not sure it makes sense. If nothing else, how would Butch know whose car it was?

Lord Mandrake

Quote from: kalowski on June 23, 2019, 03:42:30 PM
I completely loved it when it came out. I saw it at the cinema and came out floating on electric air. But it's been a case of rapidly diminishing returns. I just don't see what I liked about it.

Sounds like your the problem.

mothman

I've not seen it in a long while and I'm of a mind to revisit it. Predictably, that means it's no longer on Netflix.

buzby

#75
Quote from: mothman on June 23, 2019, 05:43:31 PM
I don't think you can say that for certain. The film cuts from the "toaster pastries" (ugh) popping up directly to Butch shooting Vincent. There's no reaction shot from Travolta to the noise of the toaster. It may be that it's been left deliberately ambiguous - after all despite his despicable acts and attitude, the film has gone some way towards establishing Vincent as the closest thing to the "star" of the film, and yet another contender (and a relatively more sympathetic one) machine-guns him as he's coming out of the toilet.
I agree that the film leaves it ambiguous as it cuts from the closeup of the toaster to a split second shot if Vincent's POV of Butvh firing. The scene in the script was less ambiguous
Quote
               The bathroom door opens and Vincent Vega steps out of the
               bathroom, tightening his belt. In his hand is the book
               "MODESTY BLAISE" by Peter O'Donnell.

               Vincent and Butch lock eyes.

               Vincent freezes.

               Butch doesn't move, except to point the M61 in Vincent's
               direction.

               Neither man opens his mouth.

               Then... the toaster LOUDLY kicks up the Pop Tarts.

               That's all the situation needed.

               Butch's finger HITS the trigger.

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 06:33:03 PM
But though, doesn't Butch recognize Vincent as the guy who sassed him in the bar before the fight? You ain't my friend, palooka.
Correct - from the script:
Quote
                                     BUTCH
                         Lookin' at somethin', friend?

                                     VINCENT
                         I ain't your friend, palooka.

               Butch does a slow turn toward Vincent.

                                     BUTCH
                         What was that?

                                     VINCENT
                         I think ya heard me just fine, punchy.

               Butch turns his body to Vincent, when...

                                     MARSELLUS (O.S.)
                         Vincent Vega has entered the building,
                         git your ass over here!

               Vincent walks forward OUT OF FRAME, never giving Butch another
               glance. We DOLLY INTO CU on Butch, left alone in the FRAME,
               looking like he's ready to go into the manners-teaching
               business.

               BUTCH'S POV: Vincent hugging and kissing the obscured figure
               that is Marsellus.

               Butch makes the wise decision that is this asshole's a friend
               of Marsellus, he better let it go – for now.
In the apartment, as far as Butch is concerned , the moment he hears that flush he realises his life is in danger and having the gun ready gives him the upper hand . He knows Marcellus will want him dead, so he's in a kill or be killed situation. The toaster popping basically cues him into action. If Vincent had taken slightly longer in the toilet ne would have heard the toaster popping up, and so potentially would have come out firing from knowing someone was there.

In that scene, the script refers to the submachine gun as a Czech M61 (presumably Tarantino meant a CZ Vz.61 Skorpion) and it was changed to a MAC-10 for filming

QDRPHNC

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on June 23, 2019, 06:41:15 PM
I saw a thing recently that said Butch is the one who keys Vincent's car after the sassing occurs. I can't remember if it was a confirmed part of the script, or just speculation, but I'm not sure it makes sense. If nothing else, how would Butch know whose car it was?

Ooh, that's pretty neat, that never occured to me before. And yes, Butch does linger on the car outside his house, doesn't he? Although if he did clock that was Vincent's car, surely he either would have been a lot more cautious about going inside - at the very least wouldn't have hung about to make pop tarts.

As for the pop tart, I think its purpose is to break the tension for the audience, rather than have it set Butch off involuntarily.

mothman

Quote from: buzby on June 23, 2019, 08:24:45 PM
I agree that the film leaves it ambiguous as it cuts from the closeup of the toaster to a split second shot if Vincent's POV of Butvh firing. The scene in the script was less ambiguous As far as Butch is concerned , the moment he hears that flush he realises his life is in danger and having the gun ready gives him the upper hand . He knows Marcellus will want him dead, so he's in a kill or be killed situation. The toaster popping basically cues him into action. If Vincent had taken slightly longer in the toilet ne would have heard the toaster popping up, and so potentially would have come out firing from knowing someone was there.

In that scene, the script refers to the submachine gun as a Czech M61 (presumably Tarantino meant a CZ Vz.61 Skorpion) and it was changed to a MAC-10 for filming

But as I say, ambiguous in execution (no pun intended). Weren't there suggestions of widespread editorial influence by the Weinsteins in many of their properties? I wonder... Because it could so easily have been clarified: a close-up of Butch's eyes narrowing, or something. I don't think it matters whether the shooting is accidental or deliberate - either works within the context if the film. I personally find the notion of Vincent Vega's passing being a combination of reading in the toilet, and a hair trigger reaction caused by a toaster, to fit the film's dark humour.

Dr Rock

So Vince realises he needs a shit, takes a book in with him, but also puts some pop tarts in the toaster? That's a quick crap he's planning.

The pop tarts are a reference to Madonna, who sings Like A Virgin, which Mia Wallace is, and because Fabienne is pregnant, who talks about Madonna.

buzby

#79
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on June 23, 2019, 06:41:15 PM
I saw a thing recently that said Butch is the one who keys Vincent's car after the sassing occurs. I can't remember if it was a confirmed part of the script, or just speculation, but I'm not sure it makes sense. If nothing else, how would Butch know whose car it was?
It's not mentioned in the film or the script, but in an interview on Opie & Anthony in 2007  Tarantino was asked about it (it had been around as a fan theory before then) and confirmed it. Earlier in the clip he also talks about the Vic Vega/Vincent Vega prequel film set in Amsterdam that never got anywhere.
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 08:36:50 PM
Ooh, that's pretty neat, that never occured to me before. And yes, Butch does linger on the car outside his house, doesn't he? Although if he did clock that was Vincent's car, surely he either would have been a lot more cautious about going inside - at the very least wouldn't have hung about to make pop tarts.
Vincent's car isn't parked near Butch's apartment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RbAPmKyMdA
Vincent crashed it into Lance's house taking Mia there after she ODed.
It was actually a stunt car that was crashed, as the real 1965 Chevrolet Malibu Vincent drove was Tarentino's own car, which he bought from his friend Jerry Martinez with the money rfom selling True Romance. Tarantino used it as his regular car after filming until it was stolen from outside his house shortly after the film was released. It was eventually found and recovered in 2013.

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 23, 2019, 08:48:08 PM
So Vince realises he needs a shit, takes a book in with him, but also puts some pop tarts in the toaster? That's a quick crap he's planning.
Butch puts the pop tarts in the toaster before he notices the gun on the worktop, and then realises someone is in the apartment with him when the toilet flushes.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 23, 2019, 08:48:08 PM
So Vince realises he needs a shit, takes a book in with him, but also puts some pop tarts in the toaster? That's a quick crap he's planning.

Butch put the pop tarts in the toaster.

Also, how long are your craps? It takes 5 to 7 minutes to do a pop tart.

mothman

Toaster PastriesTM, if you please. Perhaps they take less time. Because Butch does not take 5 to 7 minutes to notice, pick up and examine the gun. Or you have to keep popping them down repeatedly until done...

Dr Rock

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 09:07:07 PM
Butch put the pop tarts in the toaster.

Also, how long are your craps? It takes 5 to 7 minutes to do a pop tart.

Oh yeah. I've never eaten a pop tart but google says they take 1-3 minutes in a toaster.

QDRPHNC


kalowski


St_Eddie

Quote from: buzby on June 23, 2019, 08:24:45 PM
If Vincent had taken slightly longer in the toilet ne would have heard the toaster popping up, and so potentially would have come out firing from knowing someone was there.

Not so.  Vincent hears Butch in the apartment, preparing the pop-tart (opening and closing cupboard doors and what have you), but assumes that it's Marsellus Wallace returning with the fast food.  This is covered on the trivia text track on the DVD, if I recall correctly.

This is probably the first and last time that I'll be the one schooling buzby.

Dr Rock

But they are there because Butch might return but then both act like there is no chance he will return. Having watched that bit again, while Marcellus is definitely carrying coffee and donuts for two, he seems overly surprised that Butch is there, then again after he's hit him with car, if he was involved in the stake-out to catch him returning. Which I'm not saying isn't the case. Just that they are remarkably forgetful about the thing they are supposed to be doing.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 23, 2019, 11:34:55 PM
But they are there because Butch might return but then both act like there is no chance he will return. Having watched that bit again, while Marcellus is definitely carrying coffee and donuts for two, he seems overly surprised that Butch is there, then again after he's hit him with car, if he was involved in the stake-out to catch him returning. Which I'm not saying isn't the case. Just that they are remarkably forgetful about the thing they are supposed to be doing.

They're surprised because while they had to cover their bases and stake out his home, they didn't think he'd actually be stupid/brave enough to go back there.

I once dreamt I was being chased by Ving Rhames.

St_Eddie

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 11:39:45 PM
They're surprised because while they had to cover their bases and stake out his home, they didn't think he'd actually be stupid/brave enough to go back there.

This.  They were only there as a part of a contingency plan, in the incredibly unlikely event that Butch would be stupid enough to return to his apartment.  They never actually expected him to and to be fair, he never would have, if it weren't for his Father's gold watch.  Hence why they're behaving so casually and are so unfocused on the task at hand.

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 23, 2019, 11:39:45 PM
I once dreamt I was being chased by Ving Rhames.

The Benny Hill reboot of your nightmares.

buzby

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 23, 2019, 11:05:14 PM
Not so.  Vincent hears Butch in the apartment, preparing the pop-tart (opening and closing cupboard doors and what have you), but assumes that it's Marsellus Wallace returning with the fast food.  This is covered on the trivia text track on the DVD, if I recall correctly.

This is probably the first and last time that I'll be the one schooling buzby.
It's not in the script and no reaction shot of Vincent hearing anything was filmed though. Like the MAC-10 being revealed as belonging to Marcellus , I think the trivia track on the DVD was used as an excuse to tidy loose ends up that were left in the script  e.g. if Marcellus wanted pop tarts why would he have  needed to go out to get food?

On a technical level, whoever it belongs to displays very poor handling drill  for the MAC-10 in that scene, leaviing it cocked, loaded and with the safety off, something you should never do with guns that fire from an open bolt due to the risk of accidental discharge. You would think Vincent would have learned his lesson on gun safety afterc what happened to poor Marvin...