Google data collection in your back yard

[Ferris]

...or rather, my backyard.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/world/canada/toronto-google-sidewalk-labs.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

This is my neighbourhood (I can see the old grain silo used in that photo from my living room). Google will now be monitoring me as I go about my business, and using that to track me and target advertising at me. I had no say in this, at all, and am fairly pissed off about it.

Here's a fun one - search "google purchase", and marvel at the fact that if you use gmail, anything and everything you've purchased since 2013 is being tracked by google and used to determine what products to sell to you.

You didn't tell google or give explicit permission but if you use gmail it scrapes your inbox looking for key terms and has learned what emailed purchase receipts look like. So everything you've bought off amazon is straight into google's databanks. You can't remove that data without physically deleting the email.

I'm fucking furious that some government dipshit has decided to give away my physical data (along with everyone else in my neighbourhood) for the low, low price of fuck all (as long as they promise to build the odd park on the most valuable real estate in the country).

Are your google settings up to date? Or does none of this bother you? I'm interested to know what people think, because I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer, but this seems egregious to me. What if my data is subpoenaed by law enforcement? Or stored on a dodgy server?

[TrenterPercenter]

Can you just use a different email account? Or does it read emails in other email clients as well?

I'm not even the least bit surprised that google is steal information from your emails, it the agreement you have on account that the service is free.

[Buelligan]

I do not use gmail.  I don't twit.  Or FB.  Don't sign in to Youtube or anything else (with one exception).  I don't bank or shop online and have no mobile phone.  I made these choices for a reason.  Two reasons, I also have no money.

[QDRPHNC]

Can I just shock you?

It doesn't really bother me. It's the price of modern convenience. It is sometimes irritating and sometimes creepy, but ultimately I don't think tech data collection has had much of an impact - positive or negative - on my life.

That's not to say it can't be used it creepy ways, or that it's not going to get progressively worse or more invasive, or that at some point where not all going to be uploaded into a giant multi-dimensional digital hive mind. Although that last one might actually be preferable to the world as it is.

[Ferris]

Can you just use a different email account? Or does it read emails in other email clients as well?

I'm not even the least bit surprised that google is steal information from your emails, it the agreement you have on account that the service is free.

I could avoid gmail and that's a fair point (though why the fuck do they need to know I bought a pizza in 2013), but I can't avoid walking around my neighbourhood. I walk past that silo with my son to get to the island ferry or go to the posh grocery store.

I can avoid certain mail clients and bits of the internet to keep my data secure if want, but I'd have to avoid leaving my apartment if I wanted to do the same with my physical data in the near future. The city/federal government have made the decision on my behalf that it's totally fine for a foreign company to follow my every move (and everyone in my neighbourhood) and keep that data indefinitely. That's mad.

If you're thinking "oh the data is collected in the aggregate and it's fine, they don't know anything about you specifically" - google sells it to third parties. The NY Times bought a data set, followed someone to a nuclear power plant, established they worked there and could then follow them around and see where they lived and their online presence which makes blackmail or bribery a piece of piss. That should terrify people. It terrifies me.

[Ferris]

I do not use gmail.  I don't twit.  Or FB.  Don't sign in to Youtube or anything else (with one exception).  I don't bank or shop online and have no mobile phone.  I made these choices for a reason.  Two reasons, I also have no money.

And you have the agency to make those decisions for yourself. I don't, now, because some wazzock in the federal government signed my right away to keep my physical data (you know, where I go for walks and my favourite coffee places) private. It'll be up for sale to the highest bidder, and there's nothing I can do about it.

[bgmnts]

Turns out those mental survivalists holed up in Montana were spot on.

Yeah, i'll be honest doesn't bother me much at all. It's fucking abysmal but i'm a small town nobody in a part of the world where fuck all happens. I am never going to do anything with my life or get into any trouble so I am already what society wants, so it really doesn't affect me at all.

[QDRPHNC]

And you have the agency to make those decisions for yourself. I don't, now, because some wazzock in the federal government signed my right away to keep my physical data (you know, where I go for walks and my favourite coffee places) private. It'll be up for sale to the highest bidder, and there's nothing I can do about it.

There is an interesting point there, that as data collection becomes ever more prevalent, we will be required to avoid physical spaces as well as digital ones.

[bgmnts]

And you have the agency to make those decisions for yourself. I don't, now, because some wazzock in the federal government signed my right away to keep my physical data (you know, where I go for walks and my favourite coffee places) private. It'll be up for sale to the highest bidder, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Two words: Timothy McVeigh.

[Ferris]

Can I just shock you?

It doesn't really bother me. It's the price of modern convenience. It is sometimes irritating and sometimes creepy, but ultimately I don't think tech data collection has had much of an impact - positive or negative - on my life.

That's not to say it can't be used it creepy ways, or that it's not going to get progressively worse or more invasive, or that at some point where not all going to be uploaded into a giant multi-dimensional digital hive mind. Although that last one might actually be preferable to the world as it is.

It's absolutely the price you pay, I just think it isn't clear to a lot of people exactly what's being taken.

Again, search "google purchases" and have a look at what google is keeping on you. Search "google locstions" and it'll show you where you live and work.

If you're not comfortable giving that information out on a forum like CaB where I trust most people and think you're all good eggs, why is google taking it (without my explicit permission) and storing indefinitely ok?

[QDRPHNC]

It's absolutely the price you pay, I just think it isn't clear to a lot of people exactly what's being taken.

Again, search "google purchases" and have a look at what google is keeping on you. Search "google locstions" and it'll show you where you live and work.

If you're not comfortable giving that information out on a forum like CaB where I trust most people and think you're all good eggs, why is google taking it (without my explicit permission) and storing indefinitely ok?

That's the thing though - you are giving them permission by using their services. And soon their "services" will expand to include physical locations.

I try to be pragmatic about these things. This is progress, and progress - all of it - brings a lot of shit and a lot of good into the world. Do I find it creepy that google scrapes my emails and tells my phone to remind me of an upcoming flight or car rental? Yes. But beyond that feeling, is it actually, tangibly a negative? I don't know.

[Buelligan]

Can I just shock you?

It doesn't really bother me. It's the price of modern convenience. It is sometimes irritating and sometimes creepy, but ultimately I don't think tech data collection has had much of an impact - positive or negative - on my life.

That's not to say it can't be used it creepy ways, or that it's not going to get progressively worse or more invasive, or that at some point where not all going to be uploaded into a giant multi-dimensional digital hive mind. Although that last one might actually be preferable to the world as it is.

I like the knowledge that I live in my own little world, I think, due to having been stalked for quite a while, I like to know the bulkheads and airlocks are all tight. 

I'd also worry, to a degree, because we see in daily life now, how anyone (and not just them but their friends and families) who crosses the path of power (even accidentally) can be doxxed and vivisectioned, framed in whatever colour they like, if it suits and hung out to die.  I think we should make that hard, not easy.  They should have to break the law to do it.

Think about how shocked people were when they learned that the Stasi had kept files on almost all their citizens?  That was a government and its secret police, this is a business enterprise.

[Ferris]

That's the thing though - you are giving them permission by using their services. And soon their "services" will expand to include physical locations.

I try to be pragmatic about these things. This is progress, and progress - all of it - brings a lot of shit and a lot of good into the world. Do I find it creepy that google scrapes my emails and tells my phone to remind me of an upcoming flight or car rental? Yes. But beyond that feeling, is it actually, tangibly a negative? I don't know.

Yeah that's totally fair, I sort of know what they do in a vague "hmm I'm sure they track it" kind of way, but seeing the list of things I've bought from amazon for the last five years written out was a real eye opener.

Then I had a poke around my "google account" and saw the other stuff they have, and it's weird. I didn't give explicit permission, they just started and hoped I'd never change the default settings. You can "pause" some of the data collection, but that's as good as it gets. "Oh but you did consent on page 845 of 1267 in our terms and conditions".

I found it all very disconcerting. Having it extend into the physical realm (and to be honest, I only care so much about this because it's my physical realm) feels like a violation.

[QDRPHNC]

Disconcerting is exactly the word. And to Beulligan's point, technology is just the latest thing to be moulded into a tool of control by the few over the rest of us.

Still though, technology has done a lot of really good things too. You take the rough with the smooth. Dead soon.

[Buelligan]

That's absolutely true.  I think the issue is when people decide to hand over the keys to their every jot and tittle, they don't know they're doing it.  They're just signing up for an email address like everyone at work has.  They're just ordering a thing online because it's cheaper, easier, available.  They're just signing in because then they get the tailored shit and they've been asked to nicely. 

No one's saying btw, if you do these ostensibly reasonable and minor things, we'll be looking at your life for the rest of your life and recording it all and we'll have rights to use that too.  They don't say that because it would frighten the horses.  Google made plenty before it started on this path and it could stop and still make plenty but it won't because power begets hunger for more.

[Noonling]

I like the knowledge that I live in my own little world, I think, due to having been stalked for quite a while, I like to know the bulkheads and airlocks are all tight. 

I'd also worry, to a degree, because we see in daily life now, how anyone (and not just them but their friends and families) who crosses the path of power (even accidentally) can be doxxed and vivisectioned, framed in whatever colour they like, if it suits and hung out to die.  I think we should make that hard, not easy.  They should have to break the law to do it.

Think about how shocked people were when they learned that the Stasi had kept files on almost all their citizens?  That was a government and its secret police, this is a business enterprise.

Don't forget crossing all that with deepfakes. How long til we see deep fake child sexual abuse just to ruin someone's life? "Oh yes, officer, FerriswheelBueller is a bad man". Having all a person's data on hand could make that easier.

Also, combine data collection with that pretty impressive text bot and the rich and/or powerful can sway views and votes by a bespoke advert that hammers on what you are most concerned about, or pinpoints anything that could be considered a weakness in your view.

Automatic prioritisation of areas and businesses that are currently in demand? Small business could lose out, and stagnation occurs.

A wealthy neighbourhood wants to increase their house values? Prices could probably become dependent on current analysis of citizens. I know! Let's create an app that gives microtransations to student and poor people for doing specific things that will sway the algorithms!

Data collection retained indefinitely? If protests become illegal, or The Gays lose rights you could find yourself being questioned on historical "crimes".

[Twed]

Can I just shock you?

It doesn't really bother me. It's the price of modern convenience.

Just wait until it is a factor in

• Your credit score
• How much you have to pay to remain healthy ("oh I see you've been getting a lot of pizzas delivered, that puts you into the NHS Plus+ Deferred Payment Conditional Access Plan)
• Providing evidence for legal proceedings you might be involved in
• A system where you employer can monitor your whereabouts in case you're skiving
• Inflated-prices adjusted to reflect what merchants think you, personally, can pay

These aren't even the headline scenarios, they're just things I'm rattling off. Invasive data protection will make your life worse and worse, especially if you let things just slide.

[Noonling]

Well. That's much more plausible and thought out than my ideas. Damn.

Time to get on the data collection train and make £££s!

[QDRPHNC]

These aren't even the headline scenarios, they're just things I'm rattling off. Invasive data protection will make your life worse and worse, especially if you let things just slide.

Maybe.

[Ferris]

Well that, and this database is presumably stored on a server in the US, which means several US federal agencies can request access at any time, and google's database is one subpoena away from becoming the FBI's database.

Pop the gmail address in, see that persons movements for the last few years. Who needs warrants/the 4th amendment anymore? Waheyyy. There are 870 federal justices in the US at the mo, and in the age of trump you only need one to sign off.

These are all worst case scenarios, but they are all... plausible. Not likely, but a potential outcome. That's mad.

Anyway, that's just the online data scrubbing. This is now in my neighbourhood tracking what me and my neighbours get up to and that. And instead of my government passing protections similar to GDPR, they are opening the door and welcoming the data collectors in.

[QDRPHNC]

Oh yeah, and then cross-reference that with your credit card data, you location data, your purchase data, CCTV footage of your movements, facial recognition shit, Facebook, call and SMS data, and you've mapped out someone's entire life.

The US has already been doing this for years. What are you going to do?

I'm not trying to sound nihilistic or anything, but it sort of is what it is. You can take a stand like Beulligan (whose stand I very much admire), but it does nothing to stem the tide in a broader sense. One of our weaknesses as humans is the idea that we're always living at some kind of culmination point, when in fact we're always living in the end of some things and the beginnings of others. There are growing - "respectable" - voices warning of an inevitable, violent convulsion in the west when inequality hits a tipping point, as it has periodically throughout all of human history. Who's to say how all this shakes out? I guess I don't want to spend my time on earth worrying about it.

[Buelligan]

I agree, it's an utter waste to worry about shit.  We know that big companies and most governments do not care about the little people.  They use them, prey on them and don't even turn over in their sleep when we die.  And that's what we have to do.  Die. 

Or at least stop supplying them with data, so die to them.  It's not hard, it's like giving up tabs or losing weight, it's a choice but it's a choice worth making.

[Ferris]

Oh I know, I'm just yelling into the void really. I can't stop it, but I can reduce the data collection by adjusting the settings google has deigned to provide, and let other people know they are able to do the same (for now...)

Other than that, I can move out of the area which (as luck would have it) we will have to do anyway thanks to the arrival of Ferris Jr in our one bedroom apartment.

He eats all our food, never pays rent, makes loud noises at all hours, never does chores, leaves the common areas a mess etc etc. Quite the roommate.

[Twed]

The US has already been doing this for years. What are you going to do?

Yes, removing yourself from it personally probably isn't going to do much good, but we are officially fucked when we stop raising a fuss about this stuff as a society.

[QDRPHNC]

Oh I know, I'm just yelling into the void really. I can't stop it, but I can reduce the data collection by adjusting the settings google has deigned to provide, and let other people know they are able to do the same (for now...)

Other than that, I can move out of the area which (as luck would have it) we will have to do anyway thanks to the arrival of Ferris Jr in our one bedroom apartment.

He eats all our food, never pays rent, makes loud noises at all hours, never does chores, leaves the common areas a mess etc etc. Quite the roommate.

It's all just... pain in the arse.

Did you see the letter some crypto bigwig sent to Toronto's movers and shakers? Laid out the case against Sidewalk Labs pretty well. If you haven't I'll see if I can dig it up.

Where are you thinking of moving to? Leslieville is lovely this time of year.

Or at least stop supplying them with data, so die to them.  It's not hard, it's like giving up tabs or losing weight, it's a choice but it's a choice worth making.

Very true, and it's a choice I would make if I could, but unfortunately my livelihood and that of my family depends on me being connected.

Yes, removing yourself from it personally probably isn't going to do much good, but we are officially fucked when we stop raising a fuss about this stuff as a society.

I think if someone is driven to raise a fuss about the encroachment of data collection on our lives, they absolutely should do so.

[Zetetic]

And instead of my government passing protections similar to GDPR, they are opening the door and welcoming the data collectors in.

And while GDPR makes a decent fist of putting some sort of guards around the use of identifiable personal data (although, for all it is worthiness, we shouldn't overstate that), you can still generally do all sorts of stuff with a limited degree of non-reversible pseudonymisation.

The NHS in England didn't give up after the care.data scandal, and the NHSs elsewhere in the UK don't have nearly the same degree of scrutiny by people with sufficient understanding. Rather, everyone learnt that you don't ask the public, you make opt-outs incredibly hard and you launder everything through the universities.

(Pseudonymisation isn't nothing - but this is still data that tells stories about people like you. From your part of town. With your diagnoses. Of your age and gender.)

[Crisps?]

If you have an android phone Google knows your every move anyway.

[QDRPHNC]

If you have an android phone Google knows your every move anyway.

apple fanboi looser

[Zetetic]

If you're thinking "oh the data is collected in the aggregate and it's fine, they don't know anything about you specifically"

Even if this were accurate (and as you go on to say, it often isn't as much as is claimed) - making claims about people like you is still something you should have some control over.

[TrenterPercenter]

Just wait until it is a factor in

• Your credit score
• How much you have to pay to remain healthy ("oh I see you've been getting a lot of pizzas delivered, that puts you into the NHS Plus+ Deferred Payment Conditional Access Plan)
• Providing evidence for legal proceedings you might be involved in
• A system where you employer can monitor your whereabouts in case you're skiving
• Inflated-prices adjusted to reflect what merchants think you, personally, can pay

These aren't even the headline scenarios, they're just things I'm rattling off. Invasive data protection will make your life worse and worse, especially if you let things just slide.

This it OTT.  All of these things would need to be voted through parliament.  GDPR means you have to consent to having your data used in an "appropriate" manner.  No one is "looking" at your data, unless they really needed/wanted to the vast vast VAST VAAAAAST amount of surveillance is algorithms that remember where you bought something and therefore put an personalised advert on the guardian.  Data is only as useful as its purpose and that is mainly about crudely selling you things.

All the inflated prices and NHS plus nonsense is just silly talk straight from Brookers arse.  You should be more worried about the very real algorithm involved in nuclear deterrents and predictive stocks and shares these are real threats.