Corbyn 24: OUR party, people!

[greencalx]

I agree that Corbyn is right to keep as far away from the Tories as possible.

Yes but you are assuming a large percentage of voters who switched away from Labour were somehow sneakily duped into it.

No I am not. Where did I say that? Why do you project so much?

I am quite convinced that people switched away from Labour because they were fucking sick and tired of them. No duping required.

An alternative explanation is that the Better Together campaign simply confirmed what many Labour voters already suspected, that Scottish Labour and Lib Dems were already closer to the Tories than they were socialist and when they saw them together, to quote Orwell, "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Joining forces for that campaign was a mistake, on that we can agree. But to say that Labour = Tory, particularly in the light of everything (ie austerity, hostile environment, Brexit etc) that's happened since 2010 and particularly 2015, on the basis of a common position on Scottish independence I think is silly.

[Johnny Yesno]

Joining forces for that campaign was a mistake, on that we can agree.

This is what informs my opinion regarding Lucas's plan.

But to say that Labour = Tory, particularly in the light of everything (ie austerity, hostile environment, Brexit etc) that's happened since 2010 and particularly 2015, on the basis of a common position on Scottish independence I think is silly.

To be fair, the tories have swung further right since then. And it's worth remembering that Scottish voters didn't decide that 'since they're all the same we might as well vote tory' either.

As far as my Scottish relatives are concerned, it wasn't so much the common position of wanting the UK to stay together as the lack of a 'we're not like those cunts' message from Labour.

[jamiefairlie]

I agree that Corbyn is right to keep as far away from the Tories as possible.

No I am not. Where did I say that? Why do you project so much?

I am quite convinced that people switched away from Labour because they were fucking sick and tired of them. No duping required.

Joining forces for that campaign was a mistake, on that we can agree. But to say that Labour = Tory, particularly in the light of everything (ie austerity, hostile environment, Brexit etc) that's happened since 2010 and particularly 2015, on the basis of a common position on Scottish independence I think is silly.

Scottish Labour is very different from a Corbyn led UK Labour. They are far more Blairite in nature and are still bitterly opposed to Corbyn and his policies. They really are snakes in the grass, a horrible bunch. It wasn't just indyref either, during the last GE they had a non-compete pact with the Tories and LD's to try to unseat the SNP anywhere they could, regardless of who won, hence the unedifying spectacle of Labour activists whooping and high-fiving at Tory gains. The Tories would not have had a majority without those Scottish Tory gains. This is why they are dead to so many Scottish voters now.

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm afraid that 'reaching out' to a tory economic murderer and one of her enablers looks exactly like endorsement. If that's not what she intends, then she needs to back away before the stain gets on her.

My shoulder-to-shoulder comment was referring to how Miliband and Cameron were seen by the Scots over indyref. Neither of them said that was what they were doing but that doesn't matter when it's the tories, who are quite rightly viewed as absolute poison.

I just think she's making a huge mistake. There are certain people in politics who are so heartless that it's just not worth associating with them.

I understand. However, I believe that nothing short of the complete electoral sinking of the tory party will put the spectre of austerity behind us, and throwing them lifelines like this will only prolong the pain.

There is nothing much I can disagree with here (sadly) you are right it does open her up to these accusations.  One thing again however, this is not a government, it is literally a one issue temporary government to get around the problem of parliament not being able to pass legislation without a government to ascend the bill.

[jamiefairlie]

There is nothing much I can disagree with here (sadly) you are right it does open her up to these accusations.  One thing again however, this is not a government, it is literally a one issue temporary government to get around the problem of parliament not being able to pass legislation without a government to ascend the bill.

Nothing can force Johnson to resign to allow this to happen. As long as he's PM he can finagle his way to no-deal and there is no way to unseat him.

[TrenterPercenter]

Nothing can force Johnson to resign to allow this to happen. As long as he's PM he can finagle his way to no-deal and there is no way to unseat him.

Yes so you have VONC called by the LOTO.  The idea of GNU is so that the VONC is won (both times) takes care of Brexit (extend/revoke/referendum) then you have a GE.

This is perfectly possible but the time frames are short, basically the VONC needs to be called the first day back.  Johnson is not PM if he loses the VONC twice, well it becomes a very grey area, therefore a GNU is called at this point and takes over.  It is unprecedented but so is everything else.

[Paul Calf]

Doesn't all of this depend on Boris Johnson respecting parliamentary convention?

[pancreas]

Doesn't all of this depend on Boris Johnson respecting parliamentary convention?

Not really because, as J Mc said, they'd put Corbyn in a cab to Buck Pal and say 'we're taking over'. And the speaker of the house would say, 'fair enough, they are'.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I'd welcome a military coup over lolboris at the moment.

[jamiefairlie]

Not really because, as J Mc said, they'd put Corbyn in a cab to Buck Pal and say 'we're taking over'. And the speaker of the house would say, 'fair enough, they are'.

We're into untried speculation territory here though. All my experience tells me that when push comes to shove, the UK establishment pulls together and, hate them or loath them, Queenie, Johnson, the Lords, the police, the judges and the army, are all on the same side.

[pancreas]

Yes, but you are a miserable bastard though, aren't you.

[jamiefairlie]

Yes, but you are a miserable bastard though, aren't you.

Being miserable is the only sane reaction to this situation.

[BlodwynPig]

Yes, but you are a miserable bastard though, aren't you.

Let the darkness flow in, it's a hellish delight.

Lunch this week?

[pancreas]

Being miserable is the only sane reaction to this situation.

I have yet to be crushed.

Let the darkness flow in, it's a hellish delight.

Lunch this week?

Back 2/9. Expect to be screaming at the VC about pensions 3-4/9 so lunch on 4/9 would be great. Club?

[BlodwynPig]

Dansk 4/9, but any time from 11th

[gib]

I'm not crushed either but i will say our jamie here has made a strong case tonight.

[pancreas]

I'm not crushed either but i will say our jamie here has made a strong case tonight.

I think we must hope that there is a successful VoNC. I agree that if that doesn't happen, then no deal is likely. I think there is a good chance for a successful VoNC and the best way to ensure that is to stop squabbling about what happens afterwards. Don't even countenance the possibility of a future after the VoNC. No fucking unity governments, nothing. Just get the VoNC done.

[Paul Calf]

...Expect to be screaming at the VC about pensions 3-4/9...

US imperialist adventure in SE Asia 'Not what it used to be'.

[gib]

i reckon it might all be bollocks to try to bluff the EU, who know this and are secretly agreeing to give some kind of token concession to The Prime Minister, hold on no that doesn't work

fuck knows mate

[Mr_Simnock]

I have yet to be crushed.

Back 2/9. Expect to be screaming at the VC about pensions 3-4/9 so lunch on 4/9 would be great. Club?

same for myself, I love being optimistic, god knows there is no chance I would be where I am today without it

[The Culture Bunker]

Not really because, as J Mc said, they'd put Corbyn in a cab to Buck Pal and say 'we're taking over'. And the speaker of the house would say, 'fair enough, they are'.

Whilst I can't imagine this ever happening, the funniest thing if it did would be the likes of the Mail reacting like the Joe Stalin had landed in London to take over.

[TrenterPercenter]

I think we must hope that there is a successful VoNC. I agree that if that doesn't happen, then no deal is likely. I think there is a good chance for a successful VoNC and the best way to ensure that is to stop squabbling about what happens afterwards. Don't even countenance the possibility of a future after the VoNC. No fucking unity governments, nothing. Just get the VoNC done.

Yes but the offer of a GNU is about convincing Tories to vote against their own government (to bring it down no less) and not be "letting in that terrorist sympathising commie Corbyn in"

Obviously some of they don't believe that propaganda themselves, but they have been in a party that has been churning it out onto the public for over 4 years.  They are worried about losing their jobs basically, and yes we can quite rightly say well you should of thought about that before you got on the bandwagon lying to the public about all of this but the problem is it doesn't solve this problem of no deal.  From there point of view they want a GE that doesn't implicate them in facilitating a Corbyn government so they retain their seat/the party faithful doesn't move to remove them.


This is all the Tories fault obviously and any remotely unbiased media would be tearing into them for literally doing the opposite of the national interest.

[BlodwynPig]

Whilst I can't imagine this ever happening, the funniest thing if it did would be the likes of the Mail reacting like the Joe Stalin had landed in London to take over.

Can we use that on campaign posters.

"If you want to see The Daily Heil cowering as if Joe Stalin has landed at Dover, sickle in hand, VOTE CORBYN"

[pancreas]

Yes but the offer of a GNU is about convincing Tories to vote against their own government (to bring it down no less) and not be "letting in that terrorist sympathising commie Corbyn in"

Obviously some of they don't believe that propaganda themselves, but they have been in a party that has been churning it out onto the public for over 4 years.  They are worried about losing their jobs basically, and yes we can quite rightly say well you should of thought about that before you got on the bandwagon lying to the public about all of this but the problem is it doesn't solve this problem of no deal.  From there point of view they want a GE that doesn't implicate them in facilitating a Corbyn government so they retain their seat/the party faithful doesn't move to remove them.


This is all the Tories fault obviously and any remotely unbiased media would be tearing into them for literally doing the opposite of the national interest.

It won't be a government for long if Corbyn doesn't stick to the very basics of: ask for extension & call a GE. In fact, he'll probably get a VoNC himself which he'll lose as soon as he's got the extension.

[Endicott]

We're into untried speculation territory here though. All my experience tells me that when push comes to shove, the UK establishment pulls together and, hate them or loath them, Queenie, Johnson, the Lords, the police, the judges and the army, are all on the same side.

This is simplistic. The judges, for example, have opposed Tory govt many, many times. The police fucking hate them, because of all the cuts.

[jobotic]

Doesn't mean they like Corbyn though. They didn't hate the Tories when they acted as their private army against miners and travellers, not to mention black people. They'll need each other post no deal.

[NoSleep]

The police fucking hate them, because of all the cuts.

And former Chancellor George Osborne's favourite tune was "Fuck Tha Police".

https://www.nme.com/news/music/dr-dre-11-1216141

[TrenterPercenter]

It won't be a government for long if Corbyn doesn't stick to the very basics of: ask for extension & call a GE. In fact, he'll probably get a VoNC himself which he'll lose as soon as he's got the extension.

Of course.  It isn't about any Corbyn government in reality it is about Tory voters perceiving that their MP has facilitated a Corbyn government.

[holyzombiejesus]

It won't be a government for long if Corbyn doesn't stick to the very basics of: ask for extension & call a GE. In fact, he'll probably get a VoNC himself which he'll lose as soon as he's got the extension.

Presuming he gets do this, would Labour go in to that promising a referendum on a new deal that they would be working to getting approved by the EU after that GE? If the tories go in to a GE promising no deal and the Lib Dems offer revocation of Article 50, wouldn't that see Labour squeezed? Also, would the threat of yet another vote after a GE be a huge turn-off for voters?

[pancreas]

LDs aren't currently offering revocation of course. I agree it would probably be their best ploy, and they can even argue that they're acting democratically by putting that offer to the public in a GE. I can't see Labour doing this. They would have to offer a renegotiated deal with a ref. Would they be explicit enough to say it would be Remain vs Soft? I rather think they should, but I think they'd prefer not to, given the fact it will be seen as a betrayal by severe Brexiters.

In any case Labour will want to deflect all talk of Brexit onto things that ought to matter to people more, like will their relatives be dying in hospital corridors.