Corbyn 24: OUR party, people!

[NoSleep]

Oh shit, yes. Some made-up bullshit they can all point at and go "... and this is why he can't be in charge."

The clock will still be ticking during that.

[jobotic]

It's useful for the LibDems & Tories to hold off to see if they can get Corbyn to waver. All he has to do is stand firm and they will have to fall in behind him if they are serious to avoid no-deal.

I agree but I'm scared that they won't. They are vermin after all.

[NoSleep]

I agree but I'm scared that they won't. They are vermin after all.

And it will be Corbyn's fault, not theirs, that no-deal goes through, somehow. But that would be just another day for Corbyn. That's why we have to consider how serious they are about avoiding no-deal.

[TrenterPercenter]

A guy I was talking to in the pub last night thinks there's zero chance of a unity government. He's been wrong about everything else so far regarding Brexit, so maybe that's an indicator that it will happen.

This has been the line of few Brexit folk obsessed with the failure of their enemies (akin to their continual prediction that the EU is going to collapse tomorrow) and some of the more jaded centrist commentariat as they get to effectively write a column on the lines of a plaque on both your houses without actually pinning their colours to the mast (and there perhaps also some other people just making life of brian jokes)

First the cynical side of me says, that this is good news for Labour whatever the outcome.  If the Lib Dems/TIG and Tory Rebels don't fall into line they will have walked the country out of the EU with no deal.  An election is coming soon whatever the case and this effectively shoots their fox against Labour.

I suspect Swinson will climb down for this reason, she has been (rather masterfully) outmanoeuvred.  It is also quite advantageous to anyone standing on a remain platform to affiliate themselves with what will be the first major scalp for remain since the referendum.  The general public might not understand in any depth but the activists that the Lib Dems and others have been riding on will know that removing no deal means a massively increased likelihood of remain in any referendum.  This means at the least a big quieting down of support and a fracturing the closer we get to 1st Sept.

I've said before I've been mightily impressed with LP strategy and whoever is advising Corbyn, they have triangulated their enemies brilliantly several times now and all whilst seemingly (well as the press keeps telling us) Labour is on it's lasts legs.  It is all very Art of War.  I don't want to speak too soon on this one as there is a long way to go but Labours positioning seems impeccable as far as I can see.

[holyzombiejesus]

I get the feeling the moment has now passed for Corbyn to lead this and the media seem to be spending their time pushing Clarke. Next they'll start pushing the 'Corbyn needs to do what's best for the country' line and they'll then paint him as a reluctant remainer who is 'playing party politics'. Bunch of cunts.

[NoSleep]

I get the feeling the moment has now passed for Corbyn to lead this and the media seem to be spending their time pushing Clarke. Next they'll start pushing the 'Corbyn needs to do what's best for the country' line and they'll then paint him as a reluctant remainer who is 'playing party politics'. Bunch of cunts.

The naysaying remainers have more to lose than Corbyn if he stands his ground on this (which is absolutely the correct thing to do). After all, everything is already Corbyn's fault. Hopefully they shit their pants and fall in behind him.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I get the feeling the moment has now passed for Corbyn to lead this and the media seem to be spending their time pushing Clarke. Next they'll start pushing the 'Corbyn needs to do what's best for the country' line and they'll then paint him as a reluctant remainer who is 'playing party politics'. Bunch of cunts.

That is definitely what will be attempted, but every attempt made to find a centrist solution to stop No Deal without Corbyn is destined to fail, and just leads you back to the same starting position. They must coalesce or they will all fail.

All the while Corbyn can hold firm and say 'this is the way it will work', if you don't agree it is on you, not me'.

My suspicion is that the most psycho anti Corbyn people would rather see No Deal and use that to blame Corbyn for not doing more.

We might be too busy facing a national crisis by then resulting from the No Deal fallout that the government is in deep shit, Labour hammers them and wins an election.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

TrenterPercenter is also right about Labour strategy.

They have now drifted from promising to implement Brexit to holding a People's Vote where they would campaign for remain without facing much flak for what is a, protracted, u-turn.

The arch Remainer crowd now look like absolute psychos for attacking Labour for having what was their own policy at the start of the year. Labour meanwhile continues to look reasonable.

Of course they did shit in the EU Elections as they were just opportunities for the extremes to sound off. Also Labour's record in EU elections is appalling, even under Blair and Brown. There just is no motive to get out and vote in such elections unless you want out or are very scared about going out.

Outside of that, they have done well steering the ship in accordance with the drift in public opinion towards fear of No Deal and weariness of the issue, erring back towards Remain.

[greencalx]

I agree with much of this. However I'm worried that the band of hardcore remainers whose priority is to oppose any kind of Brexit over preventing a Tory race-to-the-bottom Brexit is sufficiently large that halting the latter is going to b an uphill struggle.

[Johnny Yesno]

I've said before I've been mightily impressed with LP strategy and whoever is advising Corbyn, they have triangulated their enemies brilliantly several times now and all whilst seemingly (well as the press keeps telling us) Labour is on it's lasts legs.  It is all very Art of War.  I don't want to speak too soon on this one as there is a long way to go but Labours positioning seems impeccable as far as I can see.

Branching histories...

Someone's been paying attention, Trenter.

[TrenterPercenter]

There is of course still the other option of taking things to the wire and then Labour conceding to a GNU without having Corbyn as leader, on the basis that they absolutely oppose a no deal Brexit and would be willing make such a concession.  This would therefore leave them going into the next election in the position of being seen as the party not willing to play politics with the countries future.

Again shoots the Lib Dems fox to a degree highlighting their politicking and silencing their insistence that Corbyn will do anything for Brexit. 

As it is set up Labour can win the battle and the war or lose the battle but still win the war.

Edit: This would be interesting however as would Corbyn need to be re-elected to be leader? Even if the case he would easily be returned by an even bigger margin as moves against him would be viewed incredibly divisive and underhand.

[Johnny Yesno]

Edit: This would be interesting however as would Corbyn need to be re-elected to be leader? Even if the case he would easily be returned by an even bigger margin as moves against him would be viewed incredibly divisive and underhand.

I hadn't thought of that. Would they be able to find a way to keep him off the ballot? Is that what this is about?

[TrenterPercenter]

Branching histories...

Someone's been paying attention, Trenter.

Also one more thing on this.

It could well be that Labour could renegotiate a deal that is palatable to both the EU and remainers.  Labour have never put any red lines down and are much more concerned about the actual problems with EU policies and not the fantasies of the 100 odd Tories in the ERG.  It is therefore completely possible that Labour could work cross party (as should have happened when May first set off) to agree something that is palatable to a majority in parliament and keeps the EU happy (i.e. strengthening already existing legislation around freedom of movement without ending it wholesale and reducing some legislation in things like the common agricultural policy).

The more you think about it (because it is actually the main issues which is made up of leavers that see immigration as a problem wage suppression and those just not liking brown people) Labour is massively better placed to conduct this conversation and propose things that are based in improved economic terms and not simply dog whistle politics.

[TrenterPercenter]

I hadn't thought of that. Would they be able to find a way to keep him off the ballot? Is that what this is about?

It might be.  Seeing the fanaticism of the anti-Corbyn group I wouldn't bet against it but it  would be viewed as completely undemocratic, members would revolt whole scale.  This as well of course could be decided prior to any decision to resign for Corbyn.

That is why this isn't really a thing that Lib Dems can demand as it is playing with internal politics of parliamentary parties. 

Corbyn always has to call the VONC, at this point though we have this fixed term parliament 14 day period Johnson is still technically in charge after a second vote he would no longer be leader.  Clarke can move into this role then with little worry as for all means and purposes the Tories will be looking at another leadership election.  Lib Dems would also need no changes to internal party machinations.  Labour would have to have their leader resign of their own accord.  It's democratically elected leader would be sidelined without the cause for another leadership election.

That would be a major, pretty much unprecedented concession for a political party to make hence why it is not the same as Swinson conceding.

Of course expect every potential Tory or Lib Dem rebel to say they will not work with Corbyn in public as they have to be seen to be forced into it to keep any sense of credibility.

[TrenterPercenter]

An interesting suggestion that no one has mentioned however is the speaker.

I have to say i'm not sure but potentially the speaker could act as leader with all 3 party leaders as equal subordinate leaders.  Again unprecedented  but I can't see what the problem with this would be.

[Suki Bapswent]

There is of course still the other option of taking things to the wire and then Labour conceding to a GNU without having Corbyn as leader, on the basis that they absolutely oppose a no deal Brexit and would be willing make such a concession.  This would therefore leave them going into the next election in the position of being seen as the party not willing to play politics with the countries future.

It'll be a game of chicken, won't it. I hope, whatever individual desires for what follows, there will at least be agreement that allows a VONC to pass. I'm not sure of the procedure from that point - do governments form via the voting lobbies? Via appeal to the Speaker?

It could be, post VONC, we'll be in the same scenario as we were during the indicative votes shambles, with no option being able to find a majority. The Tory rebels won't bring themselves to install Corbyn as a temporary leader (ridiculous, given how limited his leadership would be), and the Labour leadership won't bring themselves to support anyone else in charge. Johnson also wouldn't be able to form a majority, which leads to a GE after Brexit, I suppose.

I think Bercow is the great unknown variable in this.

[NoSleep]

An interesting suggestion that no one has mentioned however is the speaker.

I have to say i'm not sure but potentially the speaker could act as leader with all 3 party leaders as equal subordinate leaders.  Again unprecedented  but I can't see what the problem with this would be.

Would the speaker be permitted to take a side? I always thought they only ever got a deciding vote.

[NoSleep]

Of course expect every potential Tory or Lib Dem rebel to say they will not work with Corbyn in public as they have to be seen to be forced into it to keep any sense of credibility.

Hopefully this.

[Cuellar]

Not that I would ever want to open old wounds or basically do anything to instigate discord, but I seem to recall that Cuellar didn't like Corbyn, back in the day.

Oh so I'm a thought-criminal now am I, can't criticise Dear Leader can I!

So much for kindler gentler politics!!

[imitationleather]

So much for kindler gentler politics!!

Hehehehehehehe.

[Cuellar]

Is now a good time to point out that your follow up example of your rant about the "left" not backing Corbyn to end no deal was the Greens.

....who have backed Corbyn as leader of a GNU.


be a good lad now and ram that up your cunt. ta : )

'Rant about the left' get a grip on yourself

[New folder]

shouldn't be wasting energy arguing with each other.

ram that up your cunt.

[Funcrusher]

Poor Cuellar, another victim of the Left's war against free speech.

[Cuellar]

I originally told Funcrusher to ram it up his cunt. So that was a quotation.

[Zetetic]

The worst kind of utterance.

[Funcrusher]

Picture of Corbs at the top of this article must have some quality photoshop potential.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/17/labour-tory-mps-unite-plot-radical-law-stop-no-deal-brexit

[Johnny Yesno]

Picture of Corbs at the top of this article must have some quality photoshop potential.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/17/labour-tory-mps-unite-plot-radical-law-stop-no-deal-brexit

Oh great, the Graun cheerleading activity of questionable democracy.

[honeychile]

Fucking hell.

MPs plan to pass a law stating that the prime minister must request a delay to Brexit to avoid a no-deal outcome. However, their challenge has been to find a parliamentary device enabling them to do so. There are no guarantees of success, but tactics include amending a vote relating to the Northern Ireland executive, altering parliament's standing orders, and using an emergency debate to seize control of the parliamentary timetable – which is not usually allowed under parliament's current rulebook.

Even if such a law was passed, what would happen if Johnson just ignored it? How long would the delay be for? If Johnson requested a short delay, what would happen if we approached the next deadline with no progress? What if the EU didn't want another delay without more substantial progress than us saying we intend to "avoid a no-deal outcome"?

If only there was some simpler way they could do this? Maybe a vote of no-confidence, leading to a time-limited government which agrees an extension to Article 50 and then calls a general election, say?

[Zetetic]

Even if such a law was passed, what would happen if Johnson just ignored it?

Court case, for what that's worth.

Maybe a vote of no-confidence, leading to a time-limited government which agrees an extension to Article 50 and then calls a general election, say?

Although this doesn't really solve a bunch of the issues that you've outlined either, now you mention them.

Assuming a GNU or emergency government or whatever, Corbyn-led or otherwise, I wonder what the other member states would want regarding extension at this point. The Withdrawal Agreement is written, after all.

[Johnny Yesno]

Fucking hell.

Even if such a law was passed, what would happen if Johnson just ignored it? How long would the delay be for? If Johnson requested a short delay, what would happen if we approached the next deadline with no progress? What if the EU didn't want another delay without more substantial progress than us saying we intend to "avoid a no-deal outcome"?

If only there was some simpler way they could do this? Maybe a vote of no-confidence, leading to a time-limited government which agrees an extension to Article 50 and then calls a general election, say?

And the Graun has the former being three times more likely than the latter. It's really plumbing the depths now.