Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 09:04:44 PM

Login with username, password and session length

What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?

Started by garbed_attic, July 08, 2019, 04:50:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Icehaven

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on July 10, 2019, 04:31:58 PM
All new buses should have to have two wheelchairs spaces and one pram space.

When I were a lass (the 1980s) all buses had room for loads of prams, because prams were basically deckchairs on wheels that easily folded up so you could stick them in the luggage rack, and you held the baby. Now most prams are these monstrous behemoths (yet still hold the same amount of child) that don't even fold up, so two of them take up most of the front of the bus. If I'm being ignorant here and it turned out that simple folding prams were deathtraps or something and it's been scientifically proven that children's safety can only be guaranteed by travelling in a £500 Bugaboo then fine, but somehow I doubt it.

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on July 10, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
This seems like an alright idea, far less regressive than just pricing out poorer people.
http://afreeride.org/

I don't think everyone should get one tax free return flight a year. I think that people should get one flight at the current level of taxation, then the second flight should be taxed at 150% of the current level of taxation and then it goes up a notch further for each future flight. Exceptions should be made for those with relatives in other countries (say four flights a year at the current level of taxation).

The current proposal would make it cheaper for people who only fly once a year than now, which might see people who don't fly at all fly once a year.

Also, should flights within the UK where the journey can be done by train in less than three hours (albeit it will cost a lot more than by air, which is part of the issue) have a higher level of tax?

DoesNotFollow

Quote from: katzenjammer on July 08, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
A bit off topic but I'd like to make a monthly donation to a tree planting charity, anyone know which one is best?  There seem to be loads

https://www.moortrees.org/

Small charity, good bunch. Their focus is reforesting areas on and around Dartmoor with native trees. £20 annual membership.


Danger Man

QuoteWe plant trees. Not just any trees, but natural, native trees, trees that have been part of the English landscape for thousands of years.

BNP, Mark...very straightforward. Basic stuff, Mark. Do your research.

Twit 2

#125
Quote from: Buelligan on July 09, 2019, 09:00:16 AM
And anyway, I believe in compassion...

That's my true hope, that we're wiped off the face of this exquisite jewel, this paradise, that we're destroying and leave no scar.

Struggling to see how wishing death on everyone is compassionate. I know what you mean in principle about the world being able to carry on with out us, but it will not be a simple affair, like flicking off a switch; it will be a slow slide into a hell of unimaginable suffering.

I am honesty quite shocked by many posters' attitudes in this thread.

Quote from: chveik on July 09, 2019, 03:52:09 PM
state of this thread.

you're absolutely right.



you (some of you) are all very left leaning when it comes to brexit et al., but when gout_pony or another poster try to start a thread about the environmental crisis you just act like sneering conservative cunts.

you think you don't care that humanity is going to be wiped off the planet (or even for a few nutcases really want it to happen), but you're completely delusional. maybe you don't understand that it's going to happen much sooner than you think, probably during your lifetime, or that our fate is linked with the fate of the planet. and when you're going to be directly affected by it (or your family, your friends etc.) your nihilistic approach of existence won't last long.

He knows.

tookish

I suspect the reason some people aren't joining Extinction Rebellion is that it seems like another toothless pressure group without any viable solutions to the problem. The world is going to hell in so many different directions and people feel disempowered to stop it.

I work for an environmental charity who work with the UN to change sustainability policies surrounding the events industry. It's something, but it is a drop in the (polluted) ocean.

I am not a fatalist by any means, nor do I believe people should do nothing, but I can see that the individual actions of people driving a car or eating a hamburger are not what we need to be tackling. Policies need to be changed at the global level. Big businesses need to be hobbled in their astronomical amounts of food waste and plastic waste.

I would never discourage anybody from joining XR or similar if it gives them the sense of power to change things but I don't think it's at the forefront of the global movement.



Noonling

For people in the UK at least, there's still a big gap between what you logically know and the reality of what you see around you.

A hot summer, wahey! Seem to be a few less critters about...eh whatever.

It's hard. Its hard to think about the long term future when you're worried about the security of your job, or your sickly relative, or how you're going to pay your rent this month. It's overwhelming when you think of the scale of the problem and the huge change required within corporations and amongst consumers (and of course, yourself). It feels pointless when you see the rich jetting off everywhere or even the ordinary people being wasteful and defending it. It feels very tempting to assume that some genius will come along with some technology that will save us all in the nick of time, and then we can continue our relatively cushy lives.

And for a bunch of depressed people its quite easy to think "Well, life is meaningless anyway. Humans had a good innings."

Feels like a lazy cop-out to blame "big business", as if big business is some great machine in the sky spewing out pollution while us "normal people" try to live eco-friendly lives. Big business is made of normal people, and, is it not far to say, almost totally responds to the demands of normal people. Everyone wants to drive cars, buy new stuff, eat cheap food that comes from far away and is conveniently packaged. We have all admitted as much in this thread, even cavewoman Buelligan who spends 6 hours a day on the obviously carbon-neutral computer she has. That is the problem, not some cackling businessman in his suit and tie.

GMTV

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on July 10, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
This seems like an alright idea, far less regressive than just pricing out poorer people.
http://afreeride.org/

Extinction Rebellion is regression. Its the only way. The only hope is the vulnerable aren't excessively affected, but history would tend to suggest that will be the case.

tookish

Quote from: Poisson Du Jour on July 11, 2019, 07:57:32 AM
Feels like a lazy cop-out to blame "big business", as if big business is some great machine in the sky spewing out pollution while us "normal people" try to live eco-friendly lives. Big business is made of normal people, and, is it not far to say, almost totally responds to the demands of normal people. Everyone wants to drive cars, buy new stuff, eat cheap food that comes from far away and is conveniently packaged. We have all admitted as much in this thread, even cavewoman Buelligan who spends 6 hours a day on the obviously carbon-neutral computer she has. That is the problem, not some cackling businessman in his suit and tie.

Of course businesses are made up of ordinary people, and of course individuals have a part to play but the facts are the facts - just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions, so I don't think it's a cop-out to lay blame at their door.

tookish

I'm posting from mobile and getting ready for work so can't send you heaps of links, but I thought this article was quite good:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90290795/focusing-on-how-individuals-can-stop-climate-change-is-very-convenient-for-corporations

Another good reason for not joining XR is that I suppose people have a finite amount of energy and there are so many problems with the world right now. My sister for example works housing refugees- outside of that she works tackling loneliness in senior citizens. Both extremely worthy causes that leave little room for environmental action I guess, with also having a family.

For me it's working for an environmental charity, working with LGBT youths, and managing chronic illness. I don't have time to also join XR, with the greatest will in the world there isn't time to join every fight.


GMTV

Quote from: tookish on July 11, 2019, 08:03:27 AM
Of course businesses are made up of ordinary people, and of course individuals have a part to play but the facts are the facts - just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions, so I don't think it's a cop-out to lay blame at their door.

Over a full life there probably won't be a huge difference between the amount of CO2 produced and environment destruction as a result of a normal person, and a big business 1%er. Probably. They will produce more of course. But there are millions of normal people and not that many of the 1%er types about.

Attacking the 1% helps symbolically of course. And if some type of massive change in lifestyle occurs it would presumably be helpful if there were a few sacrificial lambs to ease the masses pain (Vive la revolution eh).

GMTV

It's them Big Business fault. Coming over here with their fancy jets and conspicuous consumption.

Noonling

Quote from: GMTV on July 11, 2019, 08:15:32 AM
Over a full life there probably won't be a huge difference between the amount of CO2 produced and environment destruction as a result of a normal person, and a big business 1%er. Probably. They will produce more of course. But there are millions of normal people and not that many of the 1%er types about.

Attacking the 1% helps symbolically of course. And if some type of massive change in lifestyle occurs it would presumably be helpful if there were a few sacrificial lambs to ease the masses pain (Vive la revolution eh).

Although its obviously very rough, in a recent thread ordinary people here varied from needing 1.1 earths to 5.7. Though it's near impossible to get down to 1 earth without overall reform (to energy generation, packaging, housing etc) so there is still only so far an ordinary person can go even when they're trying.

While I think XR in and of itself is unexceptional, I have found that both online and off people are talking more about climate change since the rise of it and expressed willingness to do more. Likewise, even when XR itself may not be particularly concrete and effectual it still has brought like-minded people together and (like DoesNotFollow mentioned), people find other environmental groups or small projects through it.

Icehaven

Quote from: Noonling on July 11, 2019, 07:47:31 AM
For people in the UK at least, there's still a big gap between what you logically know and the reality of what you see around you.

A hot summer, wahey! Seem to be a few less critters about...eh whatever.



There was a report on the news this morning about a predictions of changes in climate that may happen by 2050, and it was framed as ''By 2050 London could have the same climate as Barcelona, Edinburgh will have the same climate as Paris etc.'' Not an enormously helpful way of putting it really. I mean obviously taking a moment to read further and there's loads about floods and the worrying logic of if London's as hot as Barcelona is now then how hot is Barcelona going to be etc., but the headline is still 'British cities to be as warm as popular holiday destinations.' Makes sense I guess, once you can no longer deny something bad is happening, the next step is to make it sound palatable.

Here's one for the brainsteins out there:

The big businesses only exist because the humble oppressed folk demand a lot of shit.

USA going to war over oil is because all of us want shit made from oil or to burn oil.

They wouldn't be wasting their time otherwise. Just giving us what we want.

I can only pray that the Lifestream rises up and consumes Meteor.

tookish

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on July 10, 2019, 04:31:58 PM
Does seem a bit harsh on people with a limited income if the imported food turns out to be cheaper. Disabled people often have no option but to use a car given how inaccessible public transport is for disabled people and how limited charging points for electric cars, so they should be exempt.

Perhaps a small carbon footprint chart would be helpful on food of the same price as it allows us to make a decision. I know country of origin is on a lot of food but how many people look at that.

We should also do more to reward people for using public transport by nationalising it so we can reduce the cost of train and bus journeys and build light rail options in more cities. Also have a map of charity shops in every town and city so people know where to buy second hand clothing and books from and make donations at to reduce consumption.

Also build a network of segregated cycle lanes throughout the UK to make cycling safer (I wouldn't feel safe cycling where I live due to dangerous drivers) and try and make pavements more pleasant to walk on (including measures against pavement cyclists) to promote walking. Increase the number of pedestrian crossings. All new buses should have to have two wheelchairs spaces and one pram space.

I agree.

In Western countries poverty tends to lead to a higher rate of emissions, as, like you say, imported food tends to be cheaper, as well as numerous other factors. Hard to reduce the air miles of your food when you literally can't afford to eat otherwise.

(Globally, poverty leads to fewer emissions - Africa is responsible for 2-3% of worldwide emissions, it's a simplification to say that's all down to poverty but it is a big factor)

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: The Boston Crab on July 11, 2019, 09:22:24 AM
Here's one for the brainsteins out there:

The big businesses only exist because the humble oppressed folk demand a lot of shit.

USA going to war over oil is because all of us want shit made from oil or to burn oil.

They wouldn't be wasting their time otherwise. Just giving us what we want.

I can only pray that the Lifestream rises up and consumes Meteor.

People want shit because the capitalists convince them they want though don't they.

DRINK COKE.

Blumf

Quote from: The Boston Crab on July 11, 2019, 09:22:24 AM
Here's one for the brainsteins out there:

The big businesses only exist because the humble oppressed folk demand a lot of shit.

USA going to war over oil is because all of us want shit made from oil or to burn oil.

They wouldn't be wasting their time otherwise. Just giving us what we want.

That last bit is the mistake. It should be "Just giving us what we want, at the highest possible profit margin."

It's cheaper, thus more profitable, to run businesses in environmentally damaging ways. (hence why China, with it's lax environment, and labour, regulations took most our productive capacity)


There are plenty of products which people want which are inherently environmentally destructive and unsustainable. That's the mistake.

Blumf

Quote from: The Boston Crab on July 11, 2019, 12:14:09 PM
There are plenty of products which people want which are inherently environmentally destructive and unsustainable. That's the mistake.

With 7.5 billion+ people, everything humans want, and need, is environmentally destructive.

Once again, a problem of capitalism, as it demands ever growing populations to drive economic 'growth'.

Cuellar

We need to eliminate unsustainable desire. All become Buddhists (the nice ones not the ones murdering Muslims in Myanmar)

Quote from: Blumf on July 11, 2019, 12:30:59 PM
With 7.5 billion+ people, everything humans want, and need, is environmentally destructive.

Once again, a problem of capitalism, as it demands ever growing populations to drive economic 'growth'.

Haha. There are more people because people shag and kids come out.

You're right, but you're seeing it the wrong way round. It's a bit of both, to be generous.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Cuellar on July 11, 2019, 12:32:32 PM
We need to eliminate unsustainable desire. All become Buddhists (the nice ones not the ones murdering Muslims in Myanmar)

My mate's going out with a Thai lady, one of her pals passed away and he accompanied her to the temple to organise the service. When they started talking dates the monk whipped an iPhone out of a crevice in his robe and pulled up the calendar.

GMTV

Quote from: The Boston Crab on July 11, 2019, 12:35:58 PM
Haha. There are more people because people shag and kids come out.

You're right, but you're seeing it the wrong way round. It's a bit of both, to be generous.

It's both isn't it? The culture drives the consumption, which drives more things to be produced and used, which further fuels the requirement and desire for more consumption.

It's big business fault for the reckless destruction of the environment and increasing of industrial CO2 emissions, and its the fault of the average person on the street who can now afford to wear disposable fashion from primark, and international travel without having to save for a decade. Its a vicious circle.

Operty1

There should be some kind of global ruling body in charge of manufacturing, that says what is or isn't essential to life, and then eliminates all non-essential products being made.

First off - Funko Pops - this isn't even a single use piece of plastic. Pointless.

GMTV

Quote from: Operty1 on July 11, 2019, 02:21:16 PM
There should be some kind of global ruling body in charge of manufacturing, that says what is or isn't essential to life, and then eliminates all non-essential products being made.

First off - Funko Pops - this isn't even a single use piece of plastic. Pointless.

Panda pops - essential

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Operty1 on July 11, 2019, 02:21:16 PM
There should be some kind of global ruling body in charge of manufacturing, that says what is or isn't essential to life, and then eliminates all non-essential products being made.