What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?

[Fambo Number Mive]

What do you do if you are off sick, have a day off or are a night shift worker though?

[dr beat]

Edited

[Icehaven]

What do you do if you are off sick, have a day off or are a night shift worker though?

The same thing everyone else would have to do if there was no electricity at night, only with the added advantage of daylight.

[Cuellar]

You can fuck off with the meat and dairy thing. Does that mean everyone has to become vegan?

Lab grown meat

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Sounds minging. At least I'll be eating it in the dark so I won't have to look at it.

[Blumf]

As said, by far the most common points - your point came up a lot less.

I mean, if I were in power, I'd implement:

But it is a very big problem with the movement, a massive lack of focus.

Historically the transition from "anti-politics" to politics has been tricky... Václav Havel's anti-politics worked well from a dissident position, but morphed into little more than neoliberalism once he was in power. As such, I can understand thewhile the XR line that we're "not a political organisation" is a bit disingenious, tactically and ideologically it makes perfect sense.

I can see the logic, but without that step, nothing can happen. At some point stuff has to be done, and that stuff will require planning and implementation, that requires politics because that's where the ability to enact the change lies.

There have been many failures with that crossover, but there have been successes too, look to the UK labour movement, it worked! We got welfare and the NHS, etc. (yeah, neo-libs fucked it up in the 90s, but it is possible, and we only need to wean ourselves off fossil fuels once)

[Uncle TechTip]

Lab grown meat

It'll have to be if we don't have fridges or freezers.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

We'll still have fridges and freezers, but they'll only work during the day. Maybe go back to salting the lab grown meat, or build an ice house, like they had in olden times.

[Fambo Number Mive]

The same thing everyone else would have to do if there was no electricity at night, only with the added advantage of daylight.

Bit rubbish for night shift workers never being able to watch TV or use the internet because they were always at work when the electricity was on.

I imagine second hand/charity bookshops would become a lot more popular as you'd need some books in case you were ill.

[garbed_attic]

Well, y'know, that's why I'm not prime minister - broadly though these are the kind of steps that need to be taken.

Or not - but a gradual decline into comparative shittiness strikes me as far preferable to a catastrophic lurch into an out-and-out Hellscape. Like... are meat and round-the-clock entertainment so important that we're all collectively willing to stake a few more years on them despite the fact that it's causing ourselves future suffering and unimaginable suffering to the kids/ grand kids any of us have?

[Paul Calf]

As said, by far the most common points - your point came up a lot less.

I mean, if I were in power, I'd implement:

- Rationing of flights (including for business purposes)
- Only one car allowed per family; petrol restrictions and taxation; investment in public transport
- Quick scaling back and eventual closure of meat and dairy industries
- Far less new building schemes; definitely no third runway
- Closure of oil, gas and coal stations... personally I don't think we can afford to decommission all nuclear power plants, however scary their existence is with rising sea levels and climate catastrophe
- Rationing of electricity usage. For most households, no electricity at night
- Lots of other stuff that the vast majority of people would

A couple of questions:

1. How would you enforce this?

2. What would the effect be on production of carbon and other AGW accelerants, and ultimately in climate change?

[canadagoose]

Not to pile on or anything, but I had to address the electricity-related points because I might know a bit about it:

- Closure of oil, gas and coal stations...

At present, I don't think there are any oil-fired power stations operating on mainland GB - they've mostly been decommissioned. Coal power has also dropped dramatically since 2013 - in January-March 2013, coal power output averaged 16.5GW, but in Jan-Mar 2018 it was only 3.76GW and in Jan-Mar 2019 only 1.32GW. A few coal units have been repurposed as biomass units, which aren't really green as such but are better for the environment than coal plants and, with rising carbon costs, are cheaper to run.

I too would like to get rid of a lot of gas power plants - but we just don't have enough capacity to replace them. Personally my preference is for more nuclear for baseload, as well as even more wind and solar, combined with a large number of battery storage units to balance out the system.

no electricity at night

I really don't think this is a good idea. Domestic properties might not seem to need it that much, but fridges and freezers can't really be left off overnight, and a lot of properties rely on economy 7 (cheaper at night) storage heating and immersion tanks for their heating, due to a lack of gas mains. (Oil-fired is a possibility but that's no better than gas!) Remember, too, wind units don't stop generating at night, so that would be wasted energy - you can only store so much in batteries before they're full. Night-time would also be a useful time to charge electric vehicles - although electricity consumption has been falling for at least a decade, it will rise when electric vehicles really take off, and charging them at night would put less strain on the grid than charging them en masse at, say, 5pm (God forbid).

[Paul Calf]

People will use household batteries to hoard electricity during the day for use at night or generators to produce it on the black.

[garbed_attic]

A couple of questions:

1. How would you enforce this?

2. What would the effect be on production of carbon and other AGW accelerants?

https://www.cat.org.uk/info-resources/zero-carbon-britain/research-reports/zero-carbon-britain-making-it-happen/

As I'm sure you well know, tons of research has already been done on the impact the meat and dairy industry, flights and automobiles etc. have upon carbon and other AGW accelerates.

As for enforcement, the kind of rationing laws which people accepted during WWII for one thing.

[garbed_attic]

Exceptions could be made for electricity at night, sure (obviously hospitals) but the other alternative would be electricity meters, but they'd need to be some kind of enforced parity.

The only reasonable objection to a massive scaling back of the meat and dairy industry really is job losses though... and honestly the same could be said for coal mines, the asbestos industry, orphan murdering factories etc.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Christ

[garbed_attic]

Christ

Won't help you come up with a better argument than "it tastes good"

but ultimately individual consumer choices make bugger all difference, which is why you need something akin to WWII-era rationing

[Paul Calf]

As for enforcement, the kind of rationing laws which people accepted during WWII for one thing.

People accepted it because they assumed it to be temporary. And there was still a black market so thriving that it was the basis of criminal fortunes that persist to this day.

[garbed_attic]

People accepted it because they assumed it to be temporary. And there was still a black market so thriving that it was the basis of fortunes that persist to this day.

Will people accept their homes flooded, mass migration, increased heat stroke etc. though just because of a diffusion of blame?

[Paul Calf]

Will people accept their homes flooded, mass migration, increased heat stroke etc. though just because of a diffusion of blame?

They'll blame whoever's convenient.

The problem is that there is no route to enforced reduction of energy consumption that doesn't end in extreme authoritarianism: either you tolerate a black market or you prosecute it harshly.

[canadagoose]

To be honest, even if it were possible to cut domestic electricity supplies off overnight, why would you do that if we're generating most of our electricity from zero-carbon sources?

[garbed_attic]

They'll blame whoever's convenient.

The problem is that there is no route to enforced reduction of energy consumption that doesn't end in extreme authoritarianism: either you tolerate a black market or you prosecute it harshly.

Sure, but clearly Britain wouldn't have been able to produce its munitions and other material things needed to win WWII if it hadn't enforced rationing, even though a black market ultimately was tolerated.

It is notable that China, however, despite being a big emitter, is also implementing the fastest, biggest scale responses to ACC.

I'm not convinced that limiting consumer choice is all or nothing though... it just seems that way b/c we've internalised the idea that consumer choice is the only form of freedom available to us.

[Zetetic]

- British Bushfood Council
- Brexit kits to be subsidised for those working in the Meat and Dairy industries.
- Massive wealth and aggressively-progressive income taxation

[garbed_attic]

To be honest, even if it were possible to cut domestic electricity supplies off overnight, why would you do that if we're generating most of our electricity from zero-carbon sources?

Well... sure... that's not happening though. I don't think the situation is just "we need to stop oil, coal and gas extraction" though - that doesn't get us much near nearly with the biodiversity crisis and it's largely factory farming that's responsible for deforestation and a fair chunk of emissions.

[garbed_attic]

I mean Brexit probably means there'll have to be rationing and such anyway so maybe it'll turn out best for our emissions after all... no-one will be able to afford to take holidays abroad for one thing... and that's even if other countries still want to let us in :p

[Zetetic]

- Stochastic blood/limb/skin taxes for energy use beyond 6MJ/day in a rolling 3 month period.

I really don't think that semi-randomised corporeal taxation has been explored sufficiently as a form of 'nudge'.

[Paul Calf]

Sure, but clearly Britain wouldn't have been able to produce its munitions and other material things needed to win WWII if it hadn't enforced rationing, even though a black market ultimately was tolerated.

It is notable that China, however, despite being a big emitter, is also implementing the fastest, biggest scale responses to ACC.

I'm not convinced that limiting consumer choice is all or nothing though... it just seems that way b/c we've internalised the idea that consumer choice is the only form of freedom available to us.

If you limit 'consumer choice' against the will of people who want it, sooner or later you'll have to start putting people in prison. That's s bit more serious than telling them they can't have any Toblerone.

The problem is this: if XR were a front for an extremist authoritarian organisation who wanted an excuse to inspect people's houses and punish them for minor infractions, how would it look different from how it actually does now?

Punishing people for damage caused mainly by very rich corporations will lead to far more serious social consequences than Brexit, or anything we've seen so far.

[Paul Calf]

- British Bushfood Council
- Brexit kits to be subsidised for those working in the Meat and Dairy industries.
- Massive wealth and aggressively-progressive income taxation

Hair shirts to be made from fibreglass.

I think we've answered the question in the title though?

[canadagoose]

Well... sure... that's not happening though. I don't think the situation is just "we need to stop oil, coal and gas extraction" though - that doesn't get us much near nearly with the biodiversity crisis and it's largely factory farming that's responsible for deforestation and a fair chunk of emissions.

So if it's more of an either-or thing (fewer gas turbines or cut electricity at night) I'd go for the former every time, honestly. I'm aware that's not the whole story, but if we're going for meaningful changes then that would be a lot better and less bothersome.

[garbed_attic]

If you limit 'consumer choice' against the will of people who want it, sooner or later you'll have to start putting people in prison. That's s bit more serious than telling them they can't have any Toblerone.

The problem is this: if XR were a front for an extremist authoritarian organisation who wanted an excuse to inspect people's houses and punish them for minor infractions, how would it look different from how it actually does now?

Punishing people for damage caused mainly by very rich corporations will lead to far more serious social consequences than Brexit, or anything we've seen so far.

Hey, I'm speaking for //myself// here because people wanted me to provide solutions...

Personally I think we need to limit consumer choice. I'm also strongly for more corporate tax and clamping down on evasions. I will note however that when I mentioned some kind of enforced scaling back of the meat and dairy industry, everyone who commented was against this.