Author Topic: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?  (Read 13850 times)

Paul Calf

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #330 on: August 11, 2019, 06:53:33 AM »
I asked “who’s responsible?”. If you take it upon yourself to decide which traffic is allowed to pass and which traffic isn’t, don’t you assume that responsibility?

phes

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #331 on: August 11, 2019, 09:01:25 AM »
In terms of what causes the majority of delays, it's too many cars for the roadway due to inadequate mass public transit and the normalisation of three cars in every driveway. Should train workers never go on strike due to the fact that it will inevitably inconvenience people, sometimes to a difficult or painful degree?

It's not strictly due to inadequate public transport. There's plenty of examples where good public transport doesn't reduce the number of automobiles on the road. A combination of induced demand and people being so wedded to their cars can wipe out or stymie gains. The messy reality is that without having an adequate public transport system and measures to restrict car use there's no guarantee of reducing congestion


I asked “who’s responsible?”. If you take it upon yourself to decide which traffic is allowed to pass and which traffic isn’t, don’t you assume that responsibility?

If you want to make individuals directly responsible then as individuals then we have some collective responsibility for the year on year congestion-related additions to emergency service response time and environmental conditions that result in death, poorer health outcomes and greater costs (e.g extent of fire damage, planning and infrastructure to mitigate delays).

If XR are to be pilloried with their footprint and stories of people harmed by their actions then perhaps we should have a nightly slot on the news with a death, destruction and cost-ometer, directly quantitatively addressing the responsibility of the population of urban drivers, and maybe a feature with some brain-damaged 40 year old stroke victim bring spoon fed by his ten year old kid. Ignorance and the status quo is innocence though, I guess.


Fambo Number Mive

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #332 on: August 11, 2019, 09:36:49 AM »
In terms of what causes the majority of delays, it's too many cars for the roadway due to inadequate mass public transit and the normalisation of three cars in every driveway. Should train workers never go on strike due to the fact that it will inevitably inconvenience people, sometimes to a difficult or painful degree?

When train workers go on strike it's working people directly withdrawing their labour in a dispute with their employer. They have no other means of negotiation aside from that.

"Three cars in every driveway" is hardly the norm, most households don't have two cars let alone three.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #333 on: August 11, 2019, 09:42:08 AM »
Do you get as fired up about the 9,500-odd people die each year in London because of air pollution, say, than you are about a hypothetical death that hasn't actually happened? And, if not, why not?

Yes, I do feel as strongly about air pollution, which is why I support congestion charging in cities and most towns, the nationalisation of public transport and greater investment in public transport, more segregated cycleways, longer driving bans for speeding drivers and more measures to tackle drivers who leave their engines running. That doesn't make Paul Calf's point any less right.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #334 on: August 11, 2019, 09:45:16 AM »

If you want to make individuals directly responsible then as individuals then we have some collective responsibility for the year on year congestion-related additions to emergency service response time and environmental conditions that result in death, poorer health outcomes and greater costs (e.g extent of fire damage, planning and infrastructure to mitigate delays).

If XR are to be pilloried with their footprint and stories of people harmed by their actions then perhaps we should have a nightly slot on the news with a death, destruction and cost-ometer, directly quantitatively addressing the responsibility of the population of urban drivers, and maybe a feature with some brain-damaged 40 year old stroke victim bring spoon fed by his ten year old kid. Ignorance and the status quo is innocence though, I guess.

People using buses and thereby reducing their carbon footprint are also caught up in XR's protests though. If they let the cyclists through, why not let the buses through as well? It's not a great look when working class people who have just finished an eight hour shift are delayed getting to their second job by middle class people. Again, it's possible to agree with an organisation's demands and criticise its methods.

phes

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #335 on: August 11, 2019, 11:16:22 AM »
I suspect in the major settlements it's not practical to allow buses through with the frequency they'd arrive. Maybe the very occasional emergency service vehicle. Letting through cyclists is ultimately about it being as practical to do so and as impractical to prevent as pedestrian thoroughfare. Letting through buses also conflicts with their non-judgemental approach. It's about systemic change, not judging which road users is a good enough boy to pass. If this means for you the method is too deeply flawed then fair enough and I do agree with those concerns. I just don't really know how else you get this into the public consciousness and discourse without causing significant disruption to the general public. Hopefully all the general criticism of XR will bring about some self reflection, but I doubt this. Externalities of car use are pretty much state sanctioned, externalities of protest are not

BlodwynPig

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #336 on: August 11, 2019, 11:18:54 AM »
The technology for green buses has been around for decades, infrastructure and political will not so much. Look across the pond to Denmark and Sweden for inspiration. Too late now of course. White Earth soon

chveik

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #337 on: August 11, 2019, 12:07:28 PM »
I just don't really know how else you get this into the public consciousness and discourse without causing significant disruption to the general public.

exactly. 

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #338 on: August 11, 2019, 12:33:06 PM »
It is difficult to get this into the public consciousness and discourse, I agree. Do local XR groups go out to areas where there might be less environmental activism and hold meetings and workshops? Talking to working class people about environmental activism? There seems to be two needs - for individual people to become greener and for governments and the establishment to change. There is a very slow movement towards the former but I think we are moving away from the latter with this new government.


Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #339 on: August 11, 2019, 03:11:22 PM »
It is difficult to get this into the public consciousness and discourse, I agree. Do local XR groups go out to areas where there might be less environmental activism and hold meetings and workshops? Talking to working class people about environmental activism? There seems to be two needs - for individual people to become greener and for governments and the establishment to change. There is a very slow movement towards the former but I think we are moving away from the latter with this new government.

I still think the degree to which XR is solely middle-class in its local groups is exaggerated (unless you believe the lumpenproletariat now exclusively is the proletariat). Ipswich is hardly a super rich town. We've got amongst us someone who does waste removal, an ex-probation worker, a mechanic etc. We're not all university graduates by any means. In terms of the number of people who do office jobs, teaching, academia, civil service or lower-middle management, I don't reckon we're any worse than C&B.

That said, I agree we should be having more meetings in deprived local areas like Gainsborough.

Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #340 on: August 11, 2019, 03:25:48 PM »
Surely mechanics are part of the problem?

Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #341 on: August 11, 2019, 03:30:37 PM »
Surely mechanics are part of the problem?

Sure - as are slaughterhouse workers; oil rig workers; taxi drivers etc.

She is vegan, mind, and doesn't have kids, so she's got the two biggest individual factors covered. But yeh, of course there's a lot of hypocrisy in XR. Karl Marx also came from a rich bourgeois family and had a maid!

Re: What don't you join Extinction Rebellion?
« Reply #342 on: August 11, 2019, 03:56:50 PM »
For the record, I really don't think we're perfect and there are certainly things that piss me off about a couple of the XR spokespeople/ founders (esp. Hallam) but I'm also more than willing to bite the bullet on that if it means being part of and supporting one of the fastest growing collective action groups this country has seen for decades. Also, ultimately, I can't change the fact that I'm middle class and white - I can be aware of it and I think using ones privilege to get arrested in place of others is someone that is fair to expect of me and other middle class white folks in the movement, as well as making sure that less privileged people in the group get the stage more at local events. Sadly I can't do very much about the fact that the media tends to interview Hallam and Read (who I do rather like, though think he should concede the stage more). Likewise, I've seen a lot of memes comparing Greta Thunberg to Nazi children with her blue eyes and blonde hair. And, yes, I think those aspects are partly responsible for her fame and success. But saying that she or we shouldn't protest is just allowing the hegemony of far richer, upper class (and generally white to boot!) political power to continue.