Italy, Ukraine, Fascists, and an Air-to-Air Missile?

[Blumf]

Bit of a confusing mess of reports going on here:


[More gimps bound for Claverham]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48987723

Anti-terrorism police in northern Italy have seized an air-to-air missile and other sophisticated weapons during raids on far-right extremist groups.

Three people were arrested, two of them near Forli airport. Neo-Nazi propaganda was also seized.

The raids were part of an investigation into Italian far-right involvement in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, the Turin police said.

That's the report, as it stands now, but it seems there was a lot of head-scratching going on as to which far-right/fascist groups were involved (It's Italy and the Ukraine, there's lots of the buggers, and they don't get on well with each other)

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/07/how-the-news-about-italian-far-right-fighters-in-ukraine-got-confused.html

Fast pacing news can be confusing. Reports appear which contradict each other. They miss some significant details. News that was fake news can suddenly becomes right. Correct versions of the news can become fake news.

Here is a live case that shows how and why this can happen.

Yesterday the Italian state police arrested a number of neo-nazis who had fought against the Russian supported separatists in Ukraine. The police found their large weapon cache. The arrest became international news because the haul included a complete French air-to-air missile that was originally delivered to Qatar. (It was likely sent from Qatar to Libya, in support of the Muslim Brotherhood side of the conflict there, and then sold off to some Italian smugglers.)

Regardless, very worrying what these fluffy bunnies are getting their hands on (not sure what use an A2A missile is to them, presumably anybody who can run an air force, can get the supplies the normal way via Prince Andrew)


[Yes, yes, the swastika is a design classic, but do you have to be such a toxic fanboy about it?]

[ZoyzaSorris]

Air to air missiles can be modified for other uses - the houthis have I believe used old soviet air to air missiles as surface to air missiles and old SAMs as surface to surface missiles on occasion. Probably easier just to try and get a shoulder launched sam in the first place though as I imagine even to use an air to air missile like this as a Sam would require some decent unwieldy launch apparatus. Maybe they just thought it looked cool.

[jobotic]

People who are anti-letting fascists have missiles are the real fascists.

[Norton Canes]

They just don't understand Ultra culture.

[Buelligan]

I imagine something like an air-to-air missile has a bit of value.  Might it not be used, rather as I understand mafiosi use stolen works of art, in lieu of money.  A donation or a bargaining chip, if you like.  Not intended for use by the holder but to re-sell or exchange for goods or services.

Also, should the peacable, reasonable, electorates of countries like Britain and France question why their governments are allowing export of items like this, where, evidentially, they are not in "safe" hands?

[Norton Canes]

If nothing else it would make an interesting hatstand. Albeit one that can only accommodate a single hat.

[king_tubby]

Lucky they didn't have any milkshakes. A narrow escape there.

[Quote]

"Hello, would you by any chance happen to have a copy of 'Fly Fishing' by J.R. Hartley?"

"No, but we do have a black market French-made 530F surface-to-air missile, if you're interested?"

"Go on then"

[Blumf]

If nothing else it would make an interesting hatstand. Albeit one that can only accommodate a single hat.

Bit like Buckaroo, waiting for the person to drop the hat on that sets the thing off.

[Dr Trouser]

Round our way, the green wheelie bin is for garden waste, not munitions. Continentals eh?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Militia are pretty much the first thing the far right establish once they take root because it fulfils their common desire for:

- A reason to use violence
- Homoerotic ritual
- Rule by force rather than by law

Unfortunately none of this is surprising. Serb nationalists are rearming, and I can see Bosnia falling into conflict again. Their next goal is a Serb dominated Bosnia in which minorities, especially Muslims are edged out of public life and marginalised in every way until they leave or die.

The proliferation of arms and complete lack of qualms about who we sell them to makes it easy for deals to be made, and certain weaponry falling into the hands of groups like these. Given Italy has a far right government and is infamously ludicrously corrupt, its predictable.

[mojo filters]

Where does your average neo-nazi get the money from to buy a complete French air to air missile system, and how were they going to deploy it?

Furthermore, organising the expensive and complex logistics involved in getting it from France to Italy, via Qatar and Libya, seems like a right kerfuffle for the sake of some minor Italian racism.

Even if I was keen and inclined that way, I'd have nowhere to keep it. My largest legacy of possessions are stored in my Mum's garage, but I don't think she'd be having any of this kind of carry on. Plus she won't even answer the phone unless she recognises the number, so those dodgy looking cops would get short shrift if they tried the front door.

[kngen]

I'd be more unsettled if the pic didn't look like a disgruntled green pic coughing up a NASA model that he had no business eating in the first place.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Where does your average neo-nazi get the money from to buy a complete French air to air missile system, and how were they going to deploy it?

It wouldn't be your average neo nazi, of course. European fascists have never had major trouble financing themselves.

I doubt they paid market price either, this is likely a 'whoops where did that go, dunno' back of a lorry job from sympathisers in the military (or an arms manufacturer whose warehouse is staffed by several sympathisers) who were adequately compensated for sticking their necks on the line.

Of course they should have been trying to get hold of a top line 3d printer so clearly these are old school Nazis who are into the Italo Disco of arms options.

[buzby]

The BBC article says the missle was used by the Qatari Army - I doubt the Army had much use for an air-to-air missile. Qatar says the missile was part of a batch of 40 that sold to another 'friendly' country as part of an arms deal in 1994:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-neonazi-arms-qatar/qatar-says-french-missile-found-among-arms-seized-in-italy-was-sold-25-years-ago-idUKKCN1UB2I4

The Super 530F is only compatibile with the Dassault Mirage F1 fighter-bomber, and Qatar sold all of it's Mirage F1s to Spain in 1994, including it's remaining stock of 40 Super 530Fs. Spain started an upgrade programme for it's Mirage F1 fleet in 2006, but the ex-Qatari examples were not included as they were non-standard and they started to be decommissioned and used for spares not long afterwards. All of their F1s were out of service by 2013, with 22 being sold to a US-based private operator for use as 'agressor' training aircraft. Spain says that all the weapons systems associated with it's F1s were demilitarised before they were sold for scrap.

The Italian police say thay have tapped phone calls between the neo-nazis and a foreign government representative about the sale of the missile for 470,000 Euros. The only remaining operator of the Mirage F1 who may have to resort to using black market suppliers is Iran (who confiscated the 24 Iraqi F1s that fled to Iran during the Gulf War).

Iran has been under an arms embargo for decades concerning it's western-made aircraft and has been unable to obtain spares via legal routes (part of the reason Libya only has 2 Mirage F1s active from their original fleet of 38 aircraft is down to Gaddafi donating a large shipment of spares to Iran in the mid-90s, despite the protestations of his own Air Force), so I expect it's most likely they were attempting to sell the missile on to Iran.

Even if it's still 'live' (i.e. it somehow managed to escape Spain's de-millling programme with it's warhead intact), the Super 530F is semi-active radar-guided - it has a radar receiver as it's seeker head which tracks the target reflections from the firing aircraft's radar. As such it's pretty much useless as a standalone missile without the host aircraft's radar system.

[Jasha]

Regardless, very worrying what these fluffy bunnies are getting their hands on (not sure what use an A2A missile is to them, presumably anybody who can run an air force, can get the supplies the normal way via Prince Andrew)

It's all just a silly mix up