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His Dark Materials (BBC)

Started by kalowski, July 20, 2019, 09:35:24 AM

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touchingcloth

Quote from: Inspector Norse on November 12, 2019, 07:32:00 PM
As I wrote above - I think it's a big mistake to do that so early on, robbing the plot of a lot of its sense of wonder and strangeness.

Yep, which like you say will affect the end of this series, but even more so The Subtle Knife plots. It feels like such a big reveal at the end of The Northern Lights.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Inspector Norse on November 12, 2019, 07:32:00 PM
As I wrote above - I think it's a big mistake to do that so early on, robbing the plot of a lot of its sense of wonder and strangeness.

Yes, it's an odd decision. It's so effective in the books because after all that adventuring, it's like waking up from a dream or something.

falafel

"I am not happy"
"I am going to look over here"
"Please don't look over there"
"I am putting my left foot in front of my right foot"
"If you talk about Dust we will arrest you"
"I am looking in this room for the missing children"
"Now I am putting my right foot in front of my left foot"

The books were written for all ages, but the script seems to have been pitched at people who have been smashed in the head with tiny hammers. And, despite best attempts, it feels very conventionally televisual.
Apart from that, it's quite good.

JesusAndYourBush

Quote from: Inspector Norse on November 12, 2019, 07:18:38 PM
they did rather emphasise his going back and forth through the portal to make sure that was clear, I thought?

I saw him walk through a transparent wall a couple of times.  I assumed it was some sort of force field that non-magical people can't see.

Blue Jam

Quote from: falafel on November 12, 2019, 11:03:20 PM
"I am not happy"
"I am going to look over here"
"Please don't look over there"
"I am putting my left foot in front of my right foot"
"If you talk about Dust we will arrest you"
"I am looking in this room for the missing children"
"Now I am putting my right foot in front of my left foot"

The books were written for all ages, but the script seems to have been pitched at people who have been smashed in the head with tiny hammers. And, despite best attempts, it feels very conventionally televisual.
Apart from that, it's quite good.

Aye, and I've been wondering how someothing can feature so much clunky exposition and yet still feel like it would make absolutely no sense to anyone who has never read the books.

The bit with Boreal in London was one that confused me- that was meant to be Boreal in "our" world wasn't it? He was hiding his snek up his sleeve because carrying a snek around in a realm where people don't have daemons would have just freaked everyone out, right? Then again... wasn't the whole concept of being able to cut the fabric of spacetime and move between worlds only introduced with the titular Subtle Knife of the third book?

I'm now wondering if this would have been better as three feature-length episodes or three miniseries- one per book, and each being pretty faithful to the book- and if that would be any less of a mess.

Still enjoying it though.

poo

It's a good kids programme like Dr Who

touchingcloth

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 14, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
Then again... wasn't the whole concept of being able to cut the fabric of spacetime and move between worlds only introduced with the titular Subtle Knife of the third book?

Yep, I can't work out why they've decided to bring that in so early on. It's like releasing Phantom Menace first and still expecting "I am your father" to carry any weight. We know, duh.

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 14, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
I'm now wondering if this would have been better as three feature-length episodes or three miniseries- one per book, and each being pretty faithful to the book- and if that would be any less of a mess.

That is what they're doing isn't it? At least as I understood it this first series is based solely on book one.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: touchingcloth on November 14, 2019, 05:26:10 PM
Yep, I can't work out why they've decided to bring that in so early on. It's like releasing Phantom Menace first and still expecting "I am your father" to carry any weight. We know, duh.

I wonder if it's a budget thing. Pad it out a bit with scenes set in contemporary London.

touchingcloth

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on November 14, 2019, 09:04:28 PM
I wonder if it's a budget thing. Pad it out a bit with scenes set in contemporary London.

Hmm. Lyra's Oxford is just the Oxford of now, and whatever the fuck Coulter's flat in Lyra's world was they didn't see fit to suggest it was somehow through a portal to our London. Not to disparage your wondering, but they could quite easily find non-contemporary locations within an easy travel from their filming base, so it's not like if saved them on CG or anything. The more I think about it the less I can fathom a flippant introduction to the multiple worlds concept. Maybe they thought this series was their lot and it'd be shitcanned before any subtle knives appeared?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: touchingcloth on November 14, 2019, 11:23:16 PM
Hmm. Lyra's Oxford is just the Oxford of now, and whatever the fuck Coulter's flat in Lyra's world was they didn't see fit to suggest it was somehow through a portal to our London. Not to disparage your wondering, but they could quite easily find non-contemporary locations within an easy travel from their filming base, so it's not like if saved them on CG or anything.

This is true, but I was thinking about the lack of cg daemons.

QuoteThe more I think about it the less I can fathom a flippant introduction to the multiple worlds concept. Maybe they thought this series was their lot and it'd be shitcanned before any subtle knives appeared?

That is a reasonable explanation.

mrfridge

I think they were just trying to get people excited early doors by BLOWING THEIR TINY MINDS With the reveal that this odd alternate world exists alongside ours. Keeps us interested then doesn't it? Especially when there's otherwise not exactly a riveting plot or much peril to speak of (yet?).

I'm enjoying it but it's not quite as grand as it needs to be. I thought HBO money being thrown at it would have given them the budget they need but maybe not. Unless they're going to spaff it all on polar bears. We shall soon see I guess.

touchingcloth

Hmm, I've just seen that episode 3 is titled "The Spies". Given that episode 2 had two premature reveals, I hope that doesn't refer to Gallivespians.

Does anyone know exactly what HBO's involvement in this is? I've read a lot about how they have spunked cash at it, but I can't find anything firm about what they've actually done. It might be more accurate to see this with a Sherlock type budget than a Game of Thrones one.

Mister Six

Game of Thrones is a bit of an outlier with HBO though, isn't it? A lot of their stuff is more modestly budgeted, and Thrones only got the big money after it became the hottest TV show in the world.

touchingcloth

I don't know, I haven't seen it. The HBO sting always makes me think of Curb and Deadwood, though, both of which are very much in the ballpark of HDM.

George Oscar Bluth II

Quote from: Mister Six on November 15, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
Game of Thrones is a bit of an outlier with HBO though, isn't it? A lot of their stuff is more modestly budgeted, and Thrones only got the big money after it became the hottest TV show in the world.

Guardian thing this week claimed it was costing $5m an episode from the off. An hour of BBC high end drama will cost, at most, $1.3m apparently.

As for this, I was trying to remember at what point in the books you realise that all this stuff isn't happening in some alternative world, but in one that exists alongside our own. I think it's probably quite a way into The Subtle Knife before we see our Oxford and I'd be interested to hear the reasoning for it. Also it's a bit weird that Boreal is an actual character, when in the books I'm fairly sure you hear him talked about a lot but see him like twice?

I've not read the books in over a decade though...

thugler

I've not read the books and i don't really understand what's going on, rather a lot of 'mysterious' plot threads that need explaining. I don't think it's much cop but am still just about bothering to watch it.

falafel

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 14, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
Aye, and I've been wondering how someothing can feature so much clunky exposition and yet still feel like it would make absolutely no sense to anyone who has never read the books.

Yes. My fiancée has never read the books and is really struggling to work out what's going on. I'm a bit worried. Is this the televisual equivalent of the poor sod at a party who is really bad at retelling other people's brilliant anecdotes (ie me)?

I am enjoying it. But in a you-had-to-be-there way.

touchingcloth

Quote from: thugler on November 18, 2019, 11:28:44 AM
I've not read the books and i don't really understand what's going on, rather a lot of 'mysterious' plot threads that need explaining. I don't think it's much cop but am still just about bothering to watch it.

This is a shame. The stuff with Boreal and modern Oxford and John Parry could really be junked in this series as it's not relevant to anything until we reach the second book, so it's a shame that they've been spending time on that when they could have been spending that time explaining more about what daemons are, as that's very much relevant to the story of this series. Case in point - my partner asked "...can people hear each other's daemons?!" when Fader Coram spoke with Pan, and there's no way it was at that point in the book before it was made clear that they can.

Anyway, I'm enjoying this. I really like the casting of Ma Costa, I think because when I read the book I kept an image of a Calpurnia type in my head for her, probably sparked by the use of "Ma" as her title more so than anything in her character.

daf

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on November 18, 2019, 10:38:00 AM
Guardian thing this week claimed it was costing $5m an episode from the off. An hour of BBC high end drama will cost, at most, $1.3m apparently.

It does actually look "a million dollars" as the saying goes, so I'm not surprised!

Thursday

I enjoyed episode 3 quite a bit more than the first two, but it does feel like having read the books is fairly essential here. It feels rushed because they're trying to cram too much in and not spending enough time on things they need to.

kalowski

I'm really enjoying it, and can I say once again that the girl playing Lyra is bloody marvellous.

Thursday

Yes, getting a child actor anywhere near good enough to play this part is quite something.

wooders1978

She's doing a great job as are most to be fair - mad lady off Luther is playing it a bit mad lady off Luther for my tastes but overall I am really enjoying it - can definitely see it being a chore for someone who has not read the books, they haven't got the balance right between explaining enough for the noobs whilst not being annoying for the book nerds by explaining everything

purlieu

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 14, 2019, 01:55:00 PMThen again... wasn't the whole concept of being able to cut the fabric of spacetime and move between worlds only introduced with the titular Subtle Knife of the third book?
The Subtle Knife is the second book and, canonically, some of the windows existed long before any of the books were set, so it doesn't upset the overall plot. The idea of the whole Boreal plot being in the show is, I think, to set the scene for how big the consequences are: it shows that we're not just confined to a girl on some boats for the whole story. It also makes sense of the title sequence. Which, from a mainstream TV perspective, I can understand. Although part of me definitely feels sorry for people out there who haven't read the books and don't get a cold open wtf moment of series 2 starting like The Subtle Knife. Effectively introducing Will via a photograph in episode 3 of the first series is... odd. But, as with Game of Thrones, I'm finding this a strangely odd watch because the pace is so different to the book that I'm constantly second guessing what's going to happen.

Overall I still think it's mostly pretty good, but I think ten episodes would have worked better than eight, because bits seem too rushed (but I felt this about GoT, which I still think should have been 16 episodes per series). With a little bit more space, I think the flaws would be ironed out, other than the daemons, which are still very much underdeveloped considering their importance in the overall plot. I'm also quite surprised at how quickly the plot is progressing. It seems that the stuff in the north is going to form a larger part of the series than it did the book.

Cerys

I'm still really enjoying this - but I can't get past the similarity between Dafne Keen and Evan Peters.

mjwilson

It's a long time since I read the books - when Pan speaks to Lyra, can other people hear him? Is he really talking or is it just an internal monologue kind of thing?

Inspector Norse

Quote from: kalowski on November 18, 2019, 07:38:52 PM
I'm really enjoying it, and can I say once again that the girl playing Lyra is bloody marvellous.

Yeah, she's one of the best things about it. The adult cast are a bit mixed: the erstwhile Mrs McAvoy* is good as Ma Costa, Ruth Wilson has some good scenes and some hammy ones, Clarke Peters is phoning it in as the Master (who's only a small part in the books anyway as I recall). Boreal is good, even though I don't agree with the decision to make him more central to the plot this early. And was that Andrew Scott in the "Grumman" photo?

*they're divorced but still live together, it says here

Better episode this week, anyway. More purpose and tension. The world is growing as the characters move into less familiar territory.

BlodwynPig


MiddleRabbit

I've read the books and I'm a big fan of them.

I was enormously disappointed by the first episode, like others have said, it was overtly children's television.  The comment about it being baffling despite the clunky exposition is spot on. 

I enjoyed the second and third episodes a lot more, probably because I'd recalibrated - or lowered, rather - my expectations. 

As for Boreal, I can see why they've had him going back and forth.  In the books, he's not in it very much in the first book and it's later revealed that he'd been going back and forth when Will's come in.  At least that's my recollection of it.  If we'd met Boreal briefly in the first episode and not seen him again until the second series, that's really confuse the non-book readers.  He's not doing anything here that's very interesting apart from being a device to introduce sexy Fleabag priest and Will, but it avoids having to have him saying what he was doing.  We've already got a certain amount of off screen, surprise, surprise action reveals to come with Asriel, if the writers did as Pullman did, it'd just  be Lyra goes North and all at goes with that.

I thought the film did a reasonable job of that in a lot of ways.  The actors were a lot better too, in the film, I thought.  James Cosmo is no Tom Courtenay as Farder Coram.  Whoever the John Faas are, the film one was a lot better.  In fact, the botched ending (which would have been ported to the second film, which I can understand, even if the end of the film missed having a big full stop and new page opening) and the removal of the religious element, which didn't matter too much in the context of the first film, but would have by the third, I thought the film was pretty good.  Flawed, but a good effort, considering. 

So, I can understand why Boreal's been shown doing what he's been doing but I think it's a mistake.  There are a lot of new characters to come and bearing in mind how clunky it's all been, I don't have high hopes for some of the new lot, in terms of laying out what's going on, possibly with charts and graphs.


JesusAndYourBush

Quote from: mjwilson on November 21, 2019, 08:31:04 PM
It's a long time since I read the books - when Pan speaks to Lyra, can other people hear him? Is he really talking or is it just an internal monologue kind of thing?

Yeah I'd be interested to know if other people can hear someone's daemon when it talks.  Also, what happens to someone if their daemon gets killed?