His Dark Materials (BBC)

[Cerys]

Yeah I'd be interested to know if other people can hear someone's daemon when it talks.  Also, what happens to someone if their daemon gets killed?

There's an absolutely heartbreaking scene in the books in which a kid is found holding and talking to a piece of dried fish in the belief that it's his daemon, but I can't remember if the daemon in question had actually died.

[touchingcloth]

Yeah I'd be interested to know if other people can hear someone's daemon when it talks.  Also, what happens to someone if their daemon gets killed?

There was a scene in episode 2 where Boreal was in his car with the journalist from Coulter's party. He crushed her butterfly daemon in his hand and she up and died.

I'm racking my brain for specific examples in the books where people hear - or converse with - other people's daemons, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. There's a taboo in the books about people or their daemons touching other people's daemons, with the exception of daemons doing things like rubbing noses as a greeting. Daemons can definitely hear each other because there are loads of points where Lyra and Pan will meet someone and Lyra will talk with the human while Pan chats with the daemon and they compare notes afterwards. My gut is that people can hear other people's daemons, but that it's not the done thing to have a natter with them. Now that I think of it there are almost certainly bits where Will speaks with Pan, so I'm going to go with a reasonably confident yes, people can hear other daemons. It's not like, say, Family Guy where some characters seem to be able to understand Stewie and others don't (if I remember Family Guy at all correctly).

It's a shame that the series didn't really raise what an extreme taboo it is in Lyra's world to touch someone else's daemon. Yes she screamed "you're hurting us!" as the monkey leapt on Pan, but in the book it's much more shocking, and Lyra's reaction isn't just pure pain, but also complete disbelief that the monkey would dare to do that. It marks Coulter out not just as violent but also as a sadist - if we were in our daemonless world then the closest thing to that scene would have been Coulter sexually assaulting Lyra.

For people who haven't read the books, is it clear from the series that humans and their daemons can't stray far from one another? It makes sense with Pan and Boreal's snake daemon, but the Gyptians all have bird daemons so I don't know if people unfamiliar with the books would assume they could just fly miles away. That's another thing that marks Coulter out as a different sort of person, because it's not just uncommon for people to be a long way apart from their daemons but completely unheard of. Seeing that would be a bit like walking in on her unexpectedly and seeing her taking her skin suit off a robot exoskeleton.

EDIT - they can speak with other people! In the books, that bit where they break into Coulter's to steal her notes plays out slightly differently. Tony Costa isn't involved, but another Gyptian called Jacob takes his place. After Benjamin dies, Jacob is seriously injured but makes it back to tell the Gyptians what they found, only he's so badly injured he doesn't do the speaking for himself:

Jacob nodded, and cast his eyes at his dæmon. It was unusual for dæmons to speak to humans other than their own, but it happened sometimes, and she spoke now.

On a related note, in the books they're spying on Boreal in the Ministry of Theology rather than Coulter at home. Benjamin gets caught in the process, and his daemon flies out to find Jacob and beg him to rescue them. I can see why they went with the whole elevator fall bit for his ending on telly, but the book equivalent is poignant because he falls from a high staircase while his bird daemon grabs onto him and desperately tries to keep him aloft before they both splat.

[Thursday]

Also it didn't really dawn on my much, but there's the fact that Coulter's Daemon never seems to speak, which obviously makes sense for her and her Daemon, but it possibly just adds to the confusion as you don't really see others having normal conversations with their Daemon's.

[Inspector Norse]

Yeah I'd be interested to know if other people can hear someone's daemon when it talks.  Also, what happens to someone if their daemon gets killed?

Fader Coram spoke directly to Pantalaimon in this week's episode.

[touchingcloth]

Fader Coram spoke directly to Pantalaimon in this week's episode.

Yeah, that's what sparked this:

my partner asked "...can people hear each other's daemons?!" when Fader Coram spoke with Pan, and there's no way it was at that point in the book before it was made clear that they can.

I couldn't think of any specific examples until this morning, but I just knew it was never raised in the books that daemons are only audible to their own humans.

[Inspector Norse]

Yeah, I meant to quote JAYB there as it was supposed to be a direct reply.

[Thursday]

It's weird because I don't remember when the book specifically addresses the issue, but it was never a question in my mind. I can understand why people would get confused and not be sure, but in fairness, if I was tasked with adapting it, it wouldn't have crossed my mind that it could be something that wouldn't clear to non-book readers.

[mjwilson]

I brought it up because Pan says "don't breathe Lyra!" while they're hiding secretly, and seemed like a dumb time to start talking if everyone could hear him.

[purlieu]

For people who haven't read the books, is it clear from the series that humans and their daemons can't stray far from one another? It makes sense with Pan and Boreal's snake daemon, but the Gyptians all have bird daemons so I don't know if people unfamiliar with the books would assume they could just fly miles away. That's another thing that marks Coulter out as a different sort of person, because it's not just uncommon for people to be a long way apart from their daemons but completely unheard of. Seeing that would be a bit like walking in on her unexpectedly and seeing her taking her skin suit off a robot exoskeleton.

Lyra definitely points out how weird it is in the second episode, but as with a lot of this it does seem to be a touch... brushed over. Which is a shame, especially given just how important the human/daemon relationship is to forthcoming revelations.

[Thursday]

Enjoyed that one, although it was 99% just because of an Armoured Bear smacking around some Catholics.

[touchingcloth]

I enjoyed it, but not so much the bear. Iorek works well in the books, but I just don't think it's possible to have an onscreen talking polar bear that isn't really distracting and shit. That's one of the reasons the film didn't work for me, and probably the reason for there never having been a feature film of Noah's Island.

[Thursday]

But no this was a good one for Lyra really shining as a character as well. Farder Coram too.

Don't know if I'll get used to Lee's accent, even though it makes sense for him.

[Ja'moke]

Definitely the best episode so far because it actually felt like a fantasy adventure. Witch potions and talking polar bears and hot air balloon geezer. The previous episodes felt a bit dreary and plodding what is meant to be a fantasy epic.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Just finished the first two episodes, pretty impressed with this once I got over how fucking awful Clark Peters dialogue and performance was. The rest has fallen into place and kept the rhythm of the books nicely. Yes nearly all the working class roles are hideously patronising unconvincing but that's par for the course.

What non-canonical elements have fit in well with the world building. There's a sense of tension and they have sculpted it around the episodes fairly well.

If I was a kid I would be enjoying this too, I reckon. Dreary? Come off it mate.

[touchingcloth]

But no this was a good one for Lyra really shining as a character as well. Farder Coram too.

Don't know if I'll get used to Lee's accent, even though it makes sense for him.

Isn't Lee an American in the books? I thought he was great.

What is a "spray" where trees are concerned? When I read it in the books I understood it as "branch", but this episode had the sprays in lickle bockles.

[Zetetic]

A Texan, I think.

[touchingcloth]

A Texan of cloud pine, I think you're right.

[Thursday]

Yeah Lee worked fine, it just is an accent that's a bit annoying to me is all I mean. But that's my own problem.

[touchingcloth]

Yeah Lee worked fine, it just is an accent that's a bit annoying to me is all I mean. But that's my own problem.

He sounded like Lin-Manuel Miranda. He does have quite a distinctive nasal voice, which always distracts me on the cast recording of Hamilton.

[Gulftastic]

I wonder why we've not had even a glimpse of Serefina in the coming soon bits.

[kalowski]

I wonder why we've not had even a glimpse of Serefina in the coming soon bits.

Exactly what my wife said, worrying she wasn't going to appear at all, but I think we've got a big reveal next episode.

[Josef K]

I don't remember the characters in the book saying 'scholastic sanctuary' all the bloody time. You could base a drinking game around it

[wooders1978]

I see Coulters daemon has already got a spin off series

[Thursday]

I see Coulters daemon has already got a spin off series

https://twitter.com/philippawarr/status/1193628029274247168

[touchingcloth]

I see Coulters daemon has already got a spin off series

They were on the episode not one hour before the first episode, so I done a double take when Coulter made her first appearance.

[wooders1978]

https://twitter.com/philippawarr/status/1193628029274247168

11k retweets - missed me moment there

[Inspector Norse]

Best episode yet, that. Much more atmospheric setting, some solid plot-pushing, and though the bears were my least favourite part of the books I thought they did a strikingly good job here: Iorek and Iofur exuded real power, menace and unpredictability (much more so than Ian McKellen's teddy in the film, or indeed the faintly rubbish giant bear from The Terror). I thought Miranda was really good too, a vital shot of energy and charisma without getting hammy.

Still on my daemon extra bugbear, though: Hester the hare got plenty of screentime but still plenty of people wandering round apparently daemon-free. Surely they could have given all those blokes sitting around idling in the bar scenes a few stuffed foxes and squirrels? Prop a penguin up by one of the mechanics outside etc. Just send a few guinea pigs to trundle round in crowd scenes, can't be that hard or expensive right?

[JesusAndYourBush]

Do the Gyptians have daemons?

[wooders1978]

Do the Gyptians have daemons?

Yes - you see farder corams in the latest episode walking alongside pantilimon

[studpuppet]

Still on my daemon extra bugbear, though: Hester the hare got plenty of screentime but still plenty of people wandering round apparently daemon-free.

Not necessarily daemon-free though. They're supposed to be an extension the person themselves, so some would have smaller animals or even insects that would reflect their personalities. Nefarious types with something to hide might well keep theirs under their clothes to conceal their thoughts?* I was wondering though, whether it was a form of 'nominative' determinism, as all the Magisterium guards had guard dogs as their daemons.

*It also saves on the CGI bill, as does hiding a polar bear around a corner apparently.