Author Topic: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever  (Read 9629 times)

Mister Six

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2019, 05:07:16 PM »
Dracula will probably turn up in a Blade sequel, hopefully better than the last time that was attempted.

If superhero fatigue actually does happen some time soon, what sort of blockbusters would you non-fans want to see made instead? Because there's only so many types of movies that Marvel (or DC) are making 'not happen', and it's not Wes Anderson ones. And it would also probably be a sequel, reboot or remake, as that's what Hollywood likes to do. Maybe a big-screen adaptation of Happy Days?

Yeah, those slots are just going to be filled by another comedy film about chalk and cheese cops blowing things up, or soldiers killing loads of foreigners or something. We're not losing out on some indie classic.

And frankly, I'd rather have Marvel put out three guaranteed good (some even excellent) films a year than have Sony parp out its latest nothing would-be franchise.

And be grateful about the Fox buyout. Imagine how many superhero films you'd have to tolerate if you had the Marvel output PLUS X-Men and Fantastic Four films. At least those will be occupying spaces in the Marvel roster instead of doubling up on them.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2019, 05:33:08 PM »
Or Jeff Bridges, but they used him in Iron Man 1. Marvel is blitzing through grizzled old white guys.
Kris Kristofferson is still alive, mind, so could always wheel him in.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2019, 05:46:40 PM »
The trouble with the whole "two or three movies a year" thing is that those two or (usually now) three movies tend to clear out everything else around them for a week or two afterwards - you almost never have another big movie up against a Marvel movie, and often there's nothing much released the week after either.

So you're now looking at six to eight weeks a year where Marvel movies dominate, and those six to eight weeks are usually during the prime blockbuster season. Throw in whatever big kids movies Disney is also releasing (which usually get the same two week window) and maybe a Star Wars movie on top and suddenly half or more of the main movie-going season each year is owned by Disney, which doesn't leave much room for any other kind of movie to gain an audience.

That's ridiculous. It's true that the rise of blockbusters has crowded out certain mid-budget cinema releases that used to exist, but this trend has been going on since the 70s. If there were less Marvel movies there would just be more Transformers sequels and $200 million movies starring The Rock that nobody remembers 6 months later.

Blaming the MCU for the crapification of mainstream movies when they are literally the only studio/franchise putting out blockbusters that are actually quality films is strange. And they do it by giving multi-hundred million dollar budgets to young/interesting filmmakers.


Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2019, 06:22:23 PM »
I would say if theres been a shift more recently its not the prevalence of entertainment blockbusters but rather the relegation of more ambitious cinema to limited arthouse markets and its replacement by Oscar baitfish drama.

I mean someone like Jonathan Glazer might be viewed as a neo Kubrick but he's never going to get the same kind of attention the original into the 80's and 90's without compromising his work.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2019, 08:05:14 AM »
There are loads of other films being made and shown in the cinema. The problem is that they are all dogshit. As I said in another thread, your ire should be aimed more at these "will this do?" messes than films that are actually pushing the envelope of blockbuster films

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2019, 08:12:42 AM »
films that are actually pushing the envelope of blockbuster films

DERISIVE, SNOBBISH SNORT

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2019, 01:09:29 PM »
You show me a blockbuster film with scenes as interesting as the stuff in Dr Strange and Spiderman Far From Home. Or a blockbuster action film written by, directed by and starring POC that has something to say about their lives. Or a set of films that interweave stories over 22 episodes combining multiple characters that remain critically and commercially successful. Or a blockbuster film that introduces a disparate set of characters no-one has ever heard of and makes them popular and even beloved, despite them including a violent, grumpy raccoon and a talking tree.

You may not like them but you are blind if you don't see any of that, and your derision deserves a place in the "clever things for stupid people" thread

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2019, 01:12:06 PM »
You show me a blockbuster film with scenes as interesting as the stuff in Dr Strange and Spiderman Far From Home. Or a blockbuster action film written by, directed by and starring POC that has something to say about their lives. Or a set of films that interweave stories over 22 episodes combining multiple characters that remain critically and commercially successful. Or a blockbuster film that introduces a disparate set of characters no-one has ever heard of and makes them popular and even beloved, despite them including a violent, grumpy raccoon and a talking tree.

You may not like them but you are blind if you don't see any of that, and your derision deserves a place in the "clever things for stupid people" thread

Pocahontas had a violent, grumpy raccoon and a talking tree, and it made $346.1 million. Check bloody mate, I reckon.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2019, 01:16:14 PM »
SINCERITY: I do enjoy the Marvel movies, generally speaking. I think some of them are downright terrific, but I couldn't bring myself to describe them as "pushing the envelope". Maybe way back, but now - for want of a better phrase - they are the envelope. Maybe they push the envelope in terms of sustained financial success, but that doesn't really matter to me. I was bored as fuck around the time of Dr Strange but kept watching up til Endgame, and now I feel done with the whole thing.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2019, 01:31:15 PM »
That's ridiculous. It's true that the rise of blockbusters has crowded out certain mid-budget cinema releases that used to exist, but this trend has been going on since the 70s. If there were less Marvel movies there would just be more Transformers sequels and $200 million movies starring The Rock that nobody remembers 6 months later.

Blaming the MCU for the crapification of mainstream movies when they are literally the only studio/franchise putting out blockbusters that are actually quality films is strange. And they do it by giving multi-hundred million dollar budgets to young/interesting filmmakers.

Well, it does depend on your definition of "quality". I think Disney does an excellent job of making Disney movies - movies designed to be perfectly enjoyable for just about everyone without ever really being especially memorable for anyone. But I also think if there were less Disney movies then the blockbusters we'd get rushing in to fill the gap would be different kinds of films to the tried and tested Disney model. Probably shittier, but possibly shittier in more entertaining and memorable ways.

And those young/interesting filmmakers Disney hire get shown the door halfway through production (if not earlier) if they're not delivering exactly what Disney wants.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2019, 01:45:53 PM »
The thing is blockbuster cinema has been in a dire state for years. Before Marvel take a random top box office 10 for a year and you'll see stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean, National Treasure, Hangover, Hunger Games, Twilight etc. It's not like we were in a golden age that Disney have destroyed with superhero films. If anything I think they've filled a gap.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2019, 02:17:19 PM »
SINCERITY: I do enjoy the Marvel movies, generally speaking. I think some of them are downright terrific, but I couldn't bring myself to describe them as "pushing the envelope". Maybe way back, but now - for want of a better phrase - they are the envelope. Maybe they push the envelope in terms of sustained financial success, but that doesn't really matter to me. I was bored as fuck around the time of Dr Strange but kept watching up til Endgame, and now I feel done with the whole thing.

I would say the are pushing the boundaries more now than ever. I am not talking about the boundaries of cinema in general but certainly for blockbuster action films

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2019, 03:55:59 PM »
Well, it does depend on your definition of "quality". I think Disney does an excellent job of making Disney movies - movies designed to be perfectly enjoyable for just about everyone without ever really being especially memorable for anyone. But I also think if there were less Disney movies then the blockbusters we'd get rushing in to fill the gap would be different kinds of films to the tried and tested Disney model. Probably shittier, but possibly shittier in more entertaining and memorable ways.

And those young/interesting filmmakers Disney hire get shown the door halfway through production (if not earlier) if they're not delivering exactly what Disney wants.

As far as the MCU goes, if that's what you're referring to, it's turned out that it was Ike Perlmutter (I think) who was being cunty with the writers / directors, specifically causing Edgar Wright to leave and Joss Whedon to not want to work there again. The rumour is that he's partly responsible for why Ultron was shite. However, Kevin Feige refused to work with him again and Disney moved him away from the film side, giving Feige total control.

This was apparently around 2014, and you'll notice the films have got steadily better since then*. Perlmutter continued to oversee the TV side, and that was and still is dog shit. I wouldn't expect there to be such a diverse and surprising collection of cast and crews for this upcoming slate of films if he was still there, and it's difficult to imagine a film called "Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness" being produced under him either.

* This might be an interesting case study for the recent "what do producers actually do?" thread.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2019, 04:17:24 PM »
If you look at the list of director's that the MCU have brought in since the Marvel Council of Shitheels was binned I don't think there can be any complaints about them trying to bring in fresh new directors with interesting visions. Jon Watts is a case in point. Who would think the director of a clown horror film and indie thriller Cop Car would be able to get the tone of Spiderman as perfectly as he has done.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2019, 10:02:32 PM »
You show me a blockbuster film with scenes as interesting as the stuff in Dr Strange and Spiderman Far From Home

Missions Impossible?

Mister Six

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2019, 11:13:24 PM »
C'mon, not even close.

thecuriousorange

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2019, 11:36:50 PM »
The thing is blockbuster cinema has been in a dire state for years. Before Marvel take a random top box office 10 for a year and you'll see stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean, National Treasure, Hangover, Hunger Games, Twilight etc. It's not like we were in a golden age that Disney have destroyed with superhero films. If anything I think they've filled a gap.

But at least Demolition Man, Face/Off, Super Mario Bros, Speed, The Matrix, Independence Day, Pulp Fiction, and Universal Soldier didn't all form one giant story, so you have to watch all of it or risk not really understanding each film fully.

Mister Six

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2019, 03:39:22 AM »
Eh, it's only really the Avengers films and Captain America 3 that have been so caught up in continuity. The rest of the films it's all pretty obvious from context or outright explained.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2019, 04:07:54 AM »
Well, it does depend on your definition of "quality". I think Disney does an excellent job of making Disney movies - movies designed to be perfectly enjoyable for just about everyone without ever really being especially memorable for anyone. But I also think if there were less Disney movies then the blockbusters we'd get rushing in to fill the gap would be different kinds of films to the tried and tested Disney model. Probably shittier, but possibly shittier in more entertaining and memorable ways.

And those young/interesting filmmakers Disney hire get shown the door halfway through production (if not earlier) if they're not delivering exactly what Disney wants.

You're projecting your own subjective experience as being objective fact. I find (most of) the Marvel films extremely memorable, especially compared to other blockbuster fare. It's not my personal favourite, but Black Panther for example is surely one of the most referenced and popularly beloved films of the last 20 years for millions of people. Guardians of the Galaxy was so memorable and distinctive that it has noticeably shifted the tone of practically every Hollywood action movie being made right now.

As for the latter point, I think that is more of an issue with the D.C. movies, which almost everyone can agree are dreadful.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2019, 07:07:37 AM »
C'mon, not even close.

Oh hang on, you were talking about the trippy stuff? In which case sure. I was thinking about the quality of the action scenes.

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2019, 11:50:03 AM »
As far as the MCU goes, if that's what you're referring to, it's turned out that it was Ike Perlmutter (I think) who was being cunty with the writers / directors, specifically causing Edgar Wright to leave and Joss Whedon to not want to work there again. The rumour is that he's partly responsible for why Ultron was shite. However, Kevin Feige refused to work with him again and Disney moved him away from the film side, giving Feige total control.

This was apparently around 2014, and you'll notice the films have got steadily better since then*. Perlmutter continued to oversee the TV side, and that was and still is dog shit. I wouldn't expect there to be such a diverse and surprising collection of cast and crews for this upcoming slate of films if he was still there, and it's difficult to imagine a film called "Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness" being produced under him either.

* This might be an interesting case study for the recent "what do producers actually do?" thread.

I should probably stagger off to the Disney thread, as I tend to see Marvel movies as being of a piece with Disney as a whole as far as their tone and approach goes. For example, here I was thinking more of Star Wars: Solo than anything from the recent MCU, though their past screwing over of various creative types (inc. Edgar Wright) was fairly memorable too. I suspect if a film seen as vitally important to the MCU (ie the next Black Panther or Captain Marvel) started to go off the rails during production then management would step in, but I also suspect pretty much everyone would be fine with that these days - Marvel seem to have earned a level of trust / fan worship as a studio you don't see anywhere else.

I'm not sure I'd totally agree the films have gotten better since 2014 - Dr Strange and Captain Marvel weren't great for mine - but they do seem to give creators more leeway now on MCU films that are considered a bit less core business. And as the recent slate of upcoming films seem pretty much all to be "less core" now that The Avengers are done with, fingers crossed they'll continue down that path.

And honestly, as far as DC movies go I'd rate Wonder Woman above most Marvel fare and I enjoyed large sections of Aquaman. What Disney has over DC / Warners at the moment is consistency - DC movies can go from a solid B+ to an F, whereas Marvel has an A every now and again but rarely drops below a C.

Cuellar

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2019, 12:32:53 PM »
You show me a blockbuster film with scenes as interesting as the stuff in Dr Strange

Inception

Mister Six

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2019, 01:58:56 PM »
Oh hang on, you were talking about the trippy stuff? In which case sure. I was thinking about the quality of the action scenes.

Even then, I think the Impy Mish films are a bit overrated in this regard. Yes, ooh, Tom Cruise is actually hanging off that plane. But beyond that gimmick, the action scenes themselves aren't particularly interesting. I'm struggling to recall anything from whatever the one before Fallout was. The Dubai dangling scene was from before that one, wasn't it? And Fallout had quite a good fistfight, but everything else was just some variation of car chases or aerial battles.

Meanwhile, Doctor Strange had the reverse kung fu scene as Hong Kong was being rewound; the astral projection battle; the chases/fights in the kaleidoscope worlds; and that fantastically clever climax with him using the time stone to persuade the baddie to leave Earth alone by jut getting on his tits over and over.

Spider-Man's action scenes have been less spectacular (ironically, given the character) but are still, for my money, more interesting than the Nth scene of Tom Cruise trying not to fall to his death. Actually, the most iconic Mission: Impossible scene remains - I think - Cruise suspended over the floor, trying not to sweat, in the first one. Simple, but far more gripping, I think.

BritishHobo

  • That is a really reductive impression
Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2019, 10:15:45 PM »
The Fantastic Four are absolute SHIT by the way. Absolute thundering dweebs, each and every one. Shit spandex with a spoddy little badge like they've written in to join the Beano Club. Even the Secret Seven would have bullied the Fantastic Four if they all went to the same school. Shoved them into bins and got naught but a wimpy little shriek in response. That's why there's no good Fantastic Four movie. No dream team in the world could redeem these heaving losers.

BritishHobo

  • That is a really reductive impression
Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2019, 10:18:44 PM »
I probably will still go and see it though

Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2019, 09:06:29 AM »
The Fantastic Four are absolute SHIT by the way. Absolute thundering dweebs, each and every one. Shit spandex with a spoddy little badge like they've written in to join the Beano Club. Even the Secret Seven would have bullied the Fantastic Four if they all went to the same school. Shoved them into bins and got naught but a wimpy little shriek in response. That's why there's no good Fantastic Four movie. No dream team in the world could redeem these heaving losers.

Bullshit. Reed and Johnny are great.

Dr Rock

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2019, 09:35:46 AM »
Marvel movies are nothing like Disney movies

Jerzy Bondov

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Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2019, 09:40:32 AM »
If Marvel are going to be making films called things like DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS then I say let them get on with it

And the reason there's no good F4 movie is partly because they've refused to do Doctor Doom properly. If Marvel Studios are happy to make mad shit like the above then I have to assume they won't make Doom a computer hacker or whatever fucking gibberish is supposed to be more serious and therefore more interesting than probably the best villain in mainstream comics.

kitsofan34

  • everybody's clever nowadays
Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #118 on: July 26, 2019, 09:48:19 AM »
And the reason there's no good F4 movie is partly because they've refused to do Doctor Doom properly. If Marvel Studios are happy to make mad shit like the above then I have to assume they won't make Doom a computer hacker or whatever fucking gibberish is supposed to be more serious and therefore more interesting than probably the best villain in mainstream comics.

https://www.slashfilm.com/noah-hawley-doctor-doom-movie-marvel-ongoing/

Jerzy Bondov

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    • righto so ive got five minutes off work and uh yeah im gonna have a cheeky volvic
Re: Marvel Phase 4, 2020-whenever
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2019, 10:47:46 AM »
That could be good. Glad it's not totally dead. We know now that the MCU doesn't really adapt individual stories or books but I'd like to see their version of Triumph & Torment once they've got a really good Doom.