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March 29, 2024, 12:54:21 PM

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Tomb Raider

Started by Abnormal Palm, July 23, 2019, 10:12:13 PM

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Poobum

Anniversary though, that back jump, that horrible back jump. The other flaws I can forgive, the irritating combat mechanism, Lara deciding she's not going to grab the ledge you stepped off this time but instead is going to have a good old plummet, the intrusion of QTEs. All of it off set by charm, fun and nostalgia. But that fucking jump. I've watched the Youtube guide, I know the "timing", I fight the camera to keep it in place and she just jumps left again and again until I'm a slathering wreck yelling at a TV, reminded of the futility of life. It's the reason I will never play that game again. My real life is a battle to enjoy the fleeting moments of happiness, trying not to worry about future unfairness and misery, don't want in games. My second playthrough was ruined knowing the coming torture of that fucking jump. Quit at Atlantis after roughly an hour, never gone back, was grumpy for the rest of the day, then partner was very sympathetic, thought I was having a depressed day, how little she knew.

Thursday

I don't even remember what you're talking about. Anniversary had a few problems, but mostly it's my favourite as it best captured the tone of the original but without the rigid controls.

biggytitbo

Are you talking about the wall jump? That is annoyingly difficult but you only need to use it a couple of times in the whole game I think.

Phil_A

I think everyone with fond memories of Tomb Raider 2 has forgotten just how irritating the snowmobile section was.

Bazooka

Quote from: Phil_A on August 17, 2019, 02:12:32 PM
I think everyone with fond memories of Tomb Raider 2 has forgotten just how irritating the snowmobile section was.

Yet the best section, once that beat drops, used to load saves just to hear the track.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qGHAzSsL_ac

Get your glow sticks out!

Poobum

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 17, 2019, 01:17:10 PM
Are you talking about the wall jump? That is annoyingly difficult but you only need to use it a couple of times in the whole game I think.

Over a half a dozen times, each at the end of a series of climbs, swings and jumps that need repeating again and again, after failure after failure. Hardest thing in games.

The snow mobile sections had the Resi Evil factor, where the terrible controls added to the fear. Never enjoyed TR3s vehicle sections quite as much, the quad and kayak were a bit a annoying, but then they didn't have the novelty factor that TR2s vehicles had. Still remember the excitement when Lara unexpectedly jumped into the boat in Venice. I'd never dreamt of such amazing things.

Thursday

I knew you'd have the boat because I'd read through reviews a dozen times before playing the game. Snowmobile was a bit of a struggle, but it still didn't seem that bad at the time, as you say the novelty factor was such that it carried it through.

Bazooka

That fucking kayak in TR3 ,fucking hell, always chose that level first to prevent a brain bleed on a play through.

Rev+

Nothing in the series was ever worse than the room in the odd closed-down tourist attraction in the Last Revelation where you had to do a ridiculously precise series of jumps off the walls to get out.  The series as a whole has been one of the worst offenders of the 'easy bit, easy bit, bit challenging, fuck you restart' genre.

purlieu

Quote from: Rev+ on August 23, 2019, 01:56:46 AM
Nothing in the series was ever worse than the room in the odd closed-down tourist attraction in the Last Revelation where you had to do a ridiculously precise series of jumps off the walls to get out.
Maybe because it was my introduction to gaming, but I actually really enjoy those kinds of bits. Something about the rigidity of the controls in the first five games gave them a very specific style of gameplay, in that moves were completely calculable. So it was a case of working out the exact sequence of movements without having to worry that you'd move the mouse half a millimetre too far or whatever it is you get with the controls of the later games. I could never get my head around mouse-controlled games.

The first has the best atmosphere, especially the Peru levels at the start. Although I could get through Caves in about five minutes by the time I'd mastered the game, it took about two hours on first play for me. Which was fine, as those background sounds and the level design were just enjoyable to exist in. Just listen to those sounds. I had the Unfinished Business version with four bonus levels, and never completed them as they were so fucking hard. The original theme music still takes me back to Christmas '98 when I got my first computer and this with it. What a beautiful piece of music.

The second is my favourite of the series, I enjoyed the mixture of environments, the vehicles, the whole run of levels in Tibet. I spent so many hours of my life playing it that I even discovered pickups that I'd never found on any online walkthroughs. The Deck is my favourite level, especially when you finally appear on the very top of the ship and see the whole cavern. Really awe-inspiring moment. The bonus levels on this are in the form of a separate game entitled The Golden Mask, set somewhere in the Arctic circle. Although it borrows models and design from the main game, it has its own atmosphere, and the third level has a whole half-hour section where you work your way from the bottom to the top of a huge cavernous room with a river of molten gold running through the centre:

There's also a fucking bonkers bonus level if you get all the secrets, with a T-Rex, the weird Guardian bird thing and Lara's butler roaming around a somwhat surreal version of Las Vegas. Worth a watch if you have 20 minutes and want to see how odd the level designers could be. Crap theme, though. An attempted re-write of the original, without anywhere near as good a melody. Also far too bright, major key sounding, loses the atmosphere. The monk chant music, snowmobile theme and this beautiful piece from Bartoli's Hideout all thankfully reference the original theme.

The third is shit. The first two games got gradually more difficult as they went along, with each level feeling like a natural extension to the previous, never knowing what was coming. In the third, each zone was completely formulaic: 1. Very simple outdoor introductory level; 2. Ludicrously difficult, overly long indoor level; 3. Vehicle level with impossible-to-control vehicle; 4. Short boss level. The only exception were the monumentally dull Nevada levels. I enjoyed the London underground level Aldwych and the mine was quite fun (especially the mutants jumping out of the dark at you, which were fucking terrifying).
The bonus levels, in contrast, are fucking brilliant. If The Lost Artefact was a full game rather than a six level mini-game it'd probably be my favourite of the series. Lara starts in a castle in the Scottish highlands, featuring some of the most beautiful scenery in the whole series:

She then travels to Folkestone to get into the Channel Tunnel, goes into an under-sea base, arrives at a French zoo and eventually seems to be transported into another dimension. Lots of easter eggs - the Loch Ness Monster, dinosaurs under the Earth's crust - and just really great, imaginative level design and gameplay.
Theme tune a definite improvement over the second, basically a rearrangement of the original. Still doesn't come close to the atmosphere of the first, but definitely has its own charm.

The Last Revelation I always liked, despite it generally being considered one of the weaker games. It's bloody difficult in places, and probably a bit too long - overall the whole thing of going back and forth between levels was a terrible idea: those middle sections should each have been two or three large levels, rather than loads of smaller intertwined ones - but I think the level design was the most beautiful of the series, and it was really fun exploring lots of them. The unkillable guardian things got tiresome, but I enjoyed the wider style of enemies, such as those you can only kill with certain weapons (skeletons needing their heads blown off, for example). The Alexandria levels are great and I love the almost post-apocalyptic atmosphere to the Cairo section.
Always found this theme tune really haunting. My second favourite after the original.

Chronicles is what it is. Just a filler to keep fans interested while Core were making Angel of Darkness. Ridiculously short, probably completable in about two and a half hours. The Rome levels have a nice atmosphere, but the gameplay is ludicrously simple. Russian Base and New York offer nothing new at all. Only the Black Isle levels, with a teenage Lara alone and weaponless on a haunted Irish island, confronting various demons and ghosts, saves the game. It's probably the most imaginative the series has ever been, and I've maybe played it more than any other set of levels, just because I love the feel of it all. Always got the feeling they spent 95% of the development time on these three levels and knocked the rest of them out in a few days. They definitely save the game from being pointless.

No real theme tune to speak of. I do like how the theme from the original features during one of the menu beauty passes.

Angel of Darkness
There's a good game in here somewhere. Core didn't complete it, but then they were building it from ground up while being relentlessly pushed to release it by Eidos. An almost impossibly buggy game on every level. Lara doesn't move around well, certain angles end up with you seeing the inside of her head, a number of narrative elements and even picks up lead absolutely nowhere at all. It's blatantly unfinished, evidenced by huge empty areas in the later levels. The levels were all too big to load properly, so were split into separate mini-levels you have to go back and forth between. Playing as Kurtis for a couple of levels is pointless as nobody gives a shit about him and it doesn't advance the actual game at all. Various bits are totally missing (from random costume changes to major plot points).
But there's a very good game in there somewhere. Last time I played it it seemed quite clear how it would fit together as a more conventional 12-14 level game, with many of the shorter levels being nothing more than linking sections. There are a number of really memorable moments - the circle of traps under The Tomb of the Ancients, the weird creatures and plants in Bio-Research Facility, and the hideous bleakness of The Sanitarium. I'm waiting for somebody to remake it using either the original game engine or the Legend-era one, because it could be great. But the actual official thing is just almost unplayable due to Lara being almost uncontrollable and bugs and glitches fucking the whole thing up on a regular basis.
Shitty orchestral bombast of a theme tune, too.

Legend was where I gave up first time, because my laptop wasn't good enough to play it after I bought it. The move to mouse + wasd controls meant I've always struggled a little with it playing since. Plenty of other issues exist: it's really bloody simple, it's really bloody short, the constant background music is no replacement for the atmospheric sounds of the Core-era games. At the same time, it was necessary to keep the franchise alive, as it's definitely a straight forward back-to-the-roots version, with beautiful graphics and ancient tombs to explore.
Fuck knows what this theme is.

Anniversary. I'm not very good at adjusting to updated things. The controls, coupled with stupid interactive cut scenes at otherwise definitive moments like the T-Rex, just meant I never really got on top of it. I get why people like it. I always enjoyed this remake using the Last Revelation-era level editor.

Underworld. Fucking hell what a boring game. So, so many 'jump and grab' sections that last about half an hour. Utter tediousness.

I've not played any of the second reboot ones. Not sure they appeal, they seem to have moved so far away from 'explore these incredible and slightly daft spaces with weird puzzles'.

If any PC users ever feel like going back to the classic games but also want something new, the Level Editor games are often excellent. They're all based on the level editor that came packaged with Chronicles, although many have been made with a modded version of the editor that has updated graphics. Mostly stand-alone levels, although there are some complete games in there. They're designed by proper fanatics so some are ludicrously hard, but I've enjoyed playing them. Quest of Gold is a great one that really feels like a standalone game and is probably a lot better than III.


Writing all this has made me want to get a cheap Windows laptop so I can replay some of these. None work on Mac, sadly.

Lemming

#70
I agree with your analysis of the series pretty much completely purlieu. I think I'm a little more kind to TR3 than you are and a little less kind to TR4, but otherwise totally agreed.

Tomb Raider 2 is one of the best games of all time, easily. Great intro and then a very fun run of levels in Venice, an even better section with the oil rig, and then one of the most atmospheric areas in all of gaming with the Maria Doria. After that it's the best levels of the game with Tibet and then a fantastic finish back in China.

DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN

No need to bother with 2013 and the rest of the reboot games if you didn't like Legend and Underworld, it's the same thing but even more cutscene-laden and combat heavy.

EDIT: As long as we've got a Tomb Raider thread, can we take this opportunity to all agree that Judith Gibbins (TR2 and TR3) is the definitive voice of Lara Croft? Nobody else comes close. I liked Shelley Blond in TR1 but Gibbins is THE TRUE LARA.

Purlieu, great post, man. Enjoyed that.

purlieu

Quote from: Lemming on December 13, 2019, 07:00:25 PM
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
Top piece of music. Used to always put this on mix tapes / MiniDiscs I made for going on holiday and the like.
Quote
EDIT: As long as we've got a Tomb Raider thread, can we take this opportunity to all agree that Judith Gibbins (TR2 and TR3) is the definitive voice of Lara Croft? Nobody else comes close. I liked Shelley Blond in TR1 but Gibbins is THE TRUE LARA.
Always preferred the TR1 voice, she sounded a bit less... I dunno, smug? Maybe less posh.

Lemming

Smug and posh are the right words to describe her performance, but it's perfect for the TR2/TR3 version of the character, I think. A bored rich person who goes around the world shooting and destroying ancient archaeological sites to retrieve artifacts with the sole intention of putting them in her mansion's basement.

I always laugh at the start of the final scene in TR2, where she's just sat on her bed idly looking at the Dagger of Xian. All that death and destruction, the Venetian mafia pretty much wiped out, a Tibetan monastery raided, several ancient warriors who have guarded the dagger for a thousand years killed, and part of the Great Wall of China lying in rubble... all so the dagger could end up as a mantelpiece ornament in Lara's house.

Jim Bob

Quote from: Lemming on December 13, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
I always laugh at the start of the final scene in TR2, where she's just sat on her bed idly looking at the Dagger of Xian. All that death and destruction, the Venetian mafia pretty much wiped out, a Tibetan monastery raided, several ancient warriors who have guarded the dagger for a thousand years killed, and part of the Great Wall of China lying in rubble... all so the dagger could end up as a mantelpiece ornament in Lara's house.

You forgot to mention the slaughtering of endangered species.

purlieu

Yeah, that all makes complete sense really. Maybe I just think Shelley Blond has a sexier voice.

Thursday

Nice write up that Purlieu, I'm warmer towards the early Crystal Dynamics one's, but I agree with your assessment of the early games.

I remember picking up Angel of Darkness on PC but it lacked controller support and I couldn't be bothered fucking about with mods. Always seemed a shame, because they seemed to have grand plans for this overarching story for it that died... I mean it probably wouldn't have been very good even if they had time to make it the way they wanted, but I always intrigued by the direction they seemed to be going.

God this music from TR 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-w8N1BLpM

Phil_A

Quote from: purlieu on December 13, 2019, 06:28:51 PM
Angel of Darkness
There's a good game in here somewhere. Core didn't complete it, but then they were building it from ground up while being relentlessly pushed to release it by Eidos. An almost impossibly buggy game on every level. Lara doesn't move around well, certain angles end up with you seeing the inside of her head, a number of narrative elements and even picks up lead absolutely nowhere at all. It's blatantly unfinished, evidenced by huge empty areas in the later levels. The levels were all too big to load properly, so were split into separate mini-levels you have to go back and forth between. Playing as Kurtis for a couple of levels is pointless as nobody gives a shit about him and it doesn't advance the actual game at all. Various bits are totally missing (from random costume changes to major plot points).
But there's a very good game in there somewhere. Last time I played it it seemed quite clear how it would fit together as a more conventional 12-14 level game, with many of the shorter levels being nothing more than linking sections. There are a number of really memorable moments - the circle of traps under The Tomb of the Ancients, the weird creatures and plants in Bio-Research Facility, and the hideous bleakness of The Sanitarium. I'm waiting for somebody to remake it using either the original game engine or the Legend-era one, because it could be great. But the actual official thing is just almost unplayable due to Lara being almost uncontrollable and bugs and glitches fucking the whole thing up on a regular basis.
Shitty orchestral bombast of a theme tune, too.


The story behind the production of that is mental, you had a development team burnt out from having to bang out a TR game a year finding themselves having to work on two simultaneously, as the team originally assigned to produce the PS2 game had fucked up so badly that they'd had to scrap the whole thing. And then half the game was cut out at a late stage as it was planned to be held back as bonus download content, even though the architecture didn't properly exist to support that back then. Just bad decision after bad decision.

Huge old thread on the Tomb Raider forums about the cut content: https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=162235

purlieu

Quote from: Thursday on December 13, 2019, 11:39:57 PM
God this music from TR 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-w8N1BLpM
You always knew you'd got to the 'fucking weird shit going on here mate' point in the game when the backing track got so fucking creepy. Racks the tension right up - both Temple of Xian and Floating Islands were proper 'get out of here as quick as possible' levels, never wanted to relax and have an explore in the way I did in Venice or anything. Incredible atmosphere.

Quote from: Phil_A on December 14, 2019, 12:50:59 AM
Huge old thread on the Tomb Raider forums about the cut content: https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=162235
Lovely, cheers! I was a regular over there for a long time but this must have been after I stopped posting - lots to read here.

Bazooka

The Yeti roar and shuffling in the dark and the shark escape in 40 Fathoms in TR2 is the most scared I've ever been from a game.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

I played the first one on the Saturn, and I remember being quite chuffed with myself for discovering an exploit that made the final boss easy to complete. The boss battle took place on this circular platform thing at the top of this big cavernous room.
The idea was you were supposed to run around it in circles, frantically unloading all your weapons on it, but it was very easy to fall off the edge into the lava below. I found out that if you hung from the front edge of the platform, the game counted it as you not being there anymore, and so the boss would retreat back to it's starting position. So you'd pop up, take a few shots, then drop back down and wait for it to retreat. Repeat until dead, and you could even kill it with just the starting pistols.
This is in the days pre internet, so I wonder how many people knew about that little exploit.

Bazooka

Interesting, never knew that.  The best thing about the originals was the level skip cheat, meaning you play your favourite level in any order, by spamming it. Or use the all weapons cheat, wouldn't do that at my age now.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Actually looking it up there were two boss fights on that level. This was the first, then you fought Natla and escaped.

purlieu

Quote from: Elderly Sumo Prophecy on December 14, 2019, 07:31:55 PM
I played the first one on the Saturn, and I remember being quite chuffed with myself for discovering an exploit that made the final boss easy to complete. The boss battle took place on this circular platform thing at the top of this big cavernous room.
The idea was you were supposed to run around it in circles, frantically unloading all your weapons on it, but it was very easy to fall off the edge into the lava below. I found out that if you hung from the front edge of the platform, the game counted it as you not being there anymore, and so the boss would retreat back to it's starting position. So you'd pop up, take a few shots, then drop back down and wait for it to retreat. Repeat until dead, and you could even kill it with just the starting pistols.
This is in the days pre internet, so I wonder how many people knew about that little exploit.
The boss worked it out after a while though. Used to go to the edge of the ledge and pick Lara off. Scared the crap out of me first time it did that!

Also, what a fucking waste of time the creation of that creature was. Huge countdown to this giant egg opening, Natla's next stage in evolution, and it's a gangly thing with no legs stuck on a ledge. Plan needed more work, Natla.