Author Topic: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?  (Read 7191 times)

chveik

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2020, 08:56:26 AM »
Oh I see so we're cancelling a 17 year old (still technically a child himself) just for attempting to murder a defenceless 6 year old. What happened to boys will be boys? What I'd like to know is what was this 6 year old doing on an extremely dangerous 10th floor balcony?!

what are you going on about

Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2020, 08:58:09 AM »
a bad joke obviously

chveik

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2020, 09:42:49 AM »
a bad joke obviously

right. sorry

I do find the current phenomenom of putting people with psychotic disorder in jail instead of institutions dedicated to that quite worrying

Zetetic

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2020, 10:31:55 AM »
The sentencing remarks are very interesting, along those lines and the relationship of diagnoses of "autism" and a "personality disorder" to this person's behaviour:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Bravery-sentence-complete.pdf

There's a lot of discussion about whether or not Broadmoor Hospital (specifically) would offer a more realistic chance of rehabilitation than treatment in prison. It's also noted that you can move from a prison to hospital, if necessary.

(There is no suggestion that Bravery had or a has a "psychotic disorder". There are no errors of perception or factual beliefs behind his behaviour.)

chveik

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2020, 10:40:29 AM »
The sentencing remarks are very interesting, along those lines and the relationship of diagnoses of "autism" and a "personality disorder" to this person's behaviour:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Bravery-sentence-complete.pdf]https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Bravery-sentence-complete.pdf

There's a lot of discussion about whether or not Broadmoor Hospital (specifically) would offer a more realistic chance of rehabilitation than treatment in prison. It's also noted that you can move from a prison to hospital, if necessary.

(There is no suggestion that Bravery had a "psychotic disorder".)

oh I thought it was the case when I first heard about the story. nevermind then. thanks for the link though, I'll look into that.

I'm just saying this because I've seen some statistics about the important number of people with schizophrenia in jail.

Zetetic

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2020, 10:44:21 AM »
I certainly wouldn't be surprised, although I suspect the causal routes to that are often more like

   psychosis > poor functioning in our society & collapsing social networks in early adulthood > recourse to crime

 rather than the more exciting

   psychosis > thinks loved ones are the devil > multiple murders.

Learning disabilities also worth mentioning, maybe.

chveik

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2020, 11:01:33 AM »
I certainly wouldn't be surprised, although I suspect the causal routes to that are often more like

   psychosis > poor functioning in our society & collapsing social networks in early adulthood > recourse to crime

 rather than the more exciting

   psychosis > thinks loved ones are the devil > multiple murders.

yes I agree. I assume they were also including people that started exhibiting symptomes once they were in prison.

Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2020, 12:08:11 PM »
I can't believe the jury overlooked the crucial evidence that the child was french. free Jonty! he was just getting Brexit done!

Pingers

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2020, 12:35:37 PM »
The sentencing remarks are very interesting, along those lines and the relationship of diagnoses of "autism" and a "personality disorder" to this person's behaviour:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Bravery-sentence-complete.pdf

There's a lot of discussion about whether or not Broadmoor Hospital (specifically) would offer a more realistic chance of rehabilitation than treatment in prison. It's also noted that you can move from a prison to hospital, if necessary.

(There is no suggestion that Bravery had or a has a "psychotic disorder". There are no errors of perception or factual beliefs behind his behaviour.)

I was thinking they might go down the Mental Health Act route (section 37/41 would be the usual route, meaning he would be kept an eye on indefinitely even if released from hospital) but that can be tricky with autism and personality disorders because to use the MHA there has to be"suitable treatment" available in the hospital you are detaining them in, and there is no 'treatment' for autism and neither is there for antisocial personality disorder / psychopathy.

Zetetic

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2020, 12:38:59 PM »
One expert witness discusses that specifically:



If a hospital order was made and you refused to engage, it would be open to you to apply for release on the basis that no treatment was available.

Dr Dow testifies that release would not automatically follow from that because a broader treatment regime would always be available and therefore you would not succeed in such an application.

 That refusal to engage could be manifest in annual applications to the tribunal for release

Pingers

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Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2020, 01:19:05 PM »
One expert witness discusses that specifically:



If a hospital order was made and you refused to engage, it would be open to you to apply for release on the basis that no treatment was available.

Dr Dow testifies that release would not automatically follow from that because a broader treatment regime would always be available and therefore you would not succeed in such an application.

 That refusal to engage could be manifest in annual applications to the tribunal for release

Yeah, as you possibly know, people detained long term under the Mental Health Act have a periodic right to apply to a tribunal to challenge their ongoing detention, it's a safeguard to ensure people aren't just binned off and forgotten about, or that an MHA detention isn't used as a back door for indeterminate prison sentences. The judge in this case was worried that after a year Bravery could successfully argue at a tribunal that his ongoing MHA detention was unlawful because of the lack of appropriate treatment available - so he would potentially be out and about after 12 months. Some years ago there were trials at Rampton hospital of a therapeutic approach to ASPD; several years and multi-millions of pounds later they had basically got nowhere so the funding was pulled. I think that makes judges more wary of MHA disposals in cases like this.

Re: Is throwing a small child off a building ever morally justified?
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2020, 02:14:06 PM »
Let's see what you say when I travel back in time and throw Baby Boris off a building

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