Two mass shootings in America [split topic]

[object-lesson]

Yeah. I mean, who'd come away from that story thinking that he was 'into Satanism'? Fucking lead-footed old cunts should get back on their disability scooters, right!?!?!?


Oh, wait a sec...

And when Betts did his murders he was wearing a hoodie inscribed with lyrics from a song by a group called Acacia Strain called 'Ramirez' that glorifies Richard Ramirez, a committed Satanist, serial killer and rapist.

Nothing to see here.

[chveik]

I'm well aware of the history of dehumanising women in popular music, but porngrind is a major extrapolation of most more mainstream examples (there are obviously plenty of popular music songs that don't do that anyway). The liberal hypocrisy is in the fact that if a neo-nazi rock group sings lyrics about White Power and murdering black people there would be no hesitation in condemning them as inciting hatred, but when young pornified men sing songs about violent sexual abuse of women and necrophilia people come up with all sorts of rationalisations.

If Menstrual Munchies sang a song about lynching and disembowling a black person you can bet hardly anyone would be saying they're 'not supposed to be taken seriously'. That's because half of black people are male so liberal men are alert to that, whereas misogyny is excused or accepted by liberals in a way that racism isn't, and the sex industry is tolerated or encouraged as 'empowering' or whatever liberal capitalists want to call it.

"young pornified men" fucks sake mate. can't you see the difference between those grindcore guys and neo nazis?

as for the racist/misogyny bit, i don't quite understand what point you're trying to make, but it doesn't sound very convincing.

[chveik]

satanism and extreme metal.

yep, these are really the most dangerous things in America.

remember those christian twats that were saying that Marilyn Manson's music was responsible for Columbine

the shooters' ideology, the music they enjoy, it doesn't really matter compared to the superstructural causes.

[QDRPHNC]

Garbage in, garbage out.

[object-lesson]

Er, yeah, because neo-Nazis actually have a political ideology of genocide backing up their lyrics, whereas pornogrind bands are mostly just edgy twats being edgy for the lulz

Sexism is a political ideology, what does it matter how ironic those lyrics are? Why are these groups choosing to express their 'edginess' in violent woman-hating rather than racism? The majority of rapes and sexual assaults are unreported, as is most domestic violence. There's a hidden war and that culture is one more overt expression of it that covers itself in 'lulz'.

Would you be saying this if they were singing songs glorifying violence against black people?

"JUST ANOTHER DIME A DOZEN OHIO GRIND DUDE WHO CAPED PROGRESSIVE POLITICS WHILE TREATING WOMEN LIKE SHIT," the band continued in another tweet.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/j5yekp/exclusive-dayton-shooter-was-in-a-pornogrind-band-that-released-songs-about-raping-and-killing-women

[QDRPHNC]

satanism and extreme metal.

yep, these are really the most dangerous things in America.

remember those christian twats that were saying that Marilyn Manson's music was responsible for Columbine

the shooters' ideology, the music they enjoy, it doesn't really matter compared to the superstructural causes.

I think it's silly to blame something like a mass shooting on a single thing.
I think it's naive to say ideology, and the kind of music or art a person is attracted to consuming or creating, "doesn't really matter".

[Endicott]

Wasn't sure whether to post here or in the Guardian thread. Anyway, Jordan fucking Peterson!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/el-paso-dayton-left-men-jordan-peterson

[QDRPHNC]

Here's my thing about Jordan Peterson. I know people hate him based on his refusal to use a person's desired pronoun. But beyond that, whenever I read an article like the above, what he is saying on the subject sounds reasonable. Am I wrong?

[Zetetic]

I don't think "that men (and women) need purpose and responsibility if they are to find meaning and direction in life" is the bit people take against.

(Particularly given that the article is echoing exactly that claim.)

[QDRPHNC]

Well I guess that's what I'm getting at.

[Zetetic]

I know people hate him based on his refusal to use a person's desired pronoun.

Not quite that.

"[The] words "zhe" and "zher" ... are at the vanguard of a ... ideology ... which is  ... similar to the ... doctrines that killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century."

I've been generous there, and tried to cut out the bits that make the claim sound more stupid.

[Endicott]

We've got a whole thread on how idiotic most of what Peterson says is, so I'm not going rehash it. He's got a lot of very other unhelpful things to say on the subject of men and women, so why use him as a conduit to express these particular views, which are edge case when put in context of all his output. It's bloody stupid.

[QDRPHNC]

Fair enough. I have him filed away in my brain as "alt-right person not to pay attention to", so I was just curious since he came across well enough in the linked piece.

[Zetetic]

He can be right about some things, while still being a pillock on the things of any controversy.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Indeed, many controversial public figures are like that

[QDRPHNC]

He can be right about some things, while still being a pillock on the things of any controversy.

Well yes. In the binary social media world of #cancelled / not cancelled, Peterson has always stuck out a little bit to me, as someone whose conclusions are highly suspect, but who seems to have at least thought his way there. As opposed to, say, Harvey Weinstein, who just liked to rape people because he could get away with it. Again though, I'm saying that without knowing much of anything about him.

[Endicott]

The article is lying about him anyway. This:

Peterson's main tenet was that men (and women) need purpose and responsibility if they are to find meaning and direction in life.

Isn't a very good way to describe his 'main tenet'. She's added the women bit in brackets. And Peterson suggests a very limited straight jacket of social norms that need to be complied with, including outmoded sexual stereotypes, in order to find 'meaning and direction in life'. It's Peterson's way or the highway.

Anyway I'll stop now. It made be fume but I've got over it.

[BlodwynPig]

Indeed, many controversial public figures are like that

Hitler loved pogs

[Monsieur Verdoux]

His main tenet is that things were better in the 50s before women started overreaching and doing jobs they weren't suited for due to the influence of postmodernism distorting natural laws. There's a biological determinism and IQ fetishism at the core of his project which is deeply reactionary

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Hitler loved pogs

I've thought of about 3 jokes that I'm not going to do

[QDRPHNC]

His drawings are shite. Peterson, not Hitler.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Perfect opportunity to post this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6dwsYWF7TXI

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Just realised that I posted the wrong video, I meant to post ANOTHER Hitler/Peterson video but fuck it just enjoy if you please Peterson claiming that Hitler was a creation of the German unconscious who changed his ideas based on crowd reaction and not someone who had already written out his exact agenda in a book years before, who piggybacked on precarity to force an extreme agenda through by creating chaos (not order, to parrot the idea that Nazi rule was by nature orderly is just buying into their self-image)

[Urinal Cake]

It's amazing. For every average white male that suddenly realises that the system is rigged or life has become meaningless or something it seems like 20% of them, empathise, understand and want to build solidarity with historically disenfranchised people.  Build towards a fairer future or some shit. The rest try to justify their historical and cultural superiority in one form or another. Yet we're supposed to think that their fall back position isn't a choice? That the lefties and minorities are supposed to roll out the carpet, can try to change their mind and make them feel good again? Welcome to the Terrordome, muthafuckers.

[bgmnts]

Are they ONS stats or...?

[Urinal Cake]

Even if the percentage is 80% the substantive points still stands.  Even among progressive young white males who wanted Bernie in 2016 or Yang in 2020 there's a feeling while they most want economic fairness i.e a common starting point or base that if that spilled towards more progressive structural reforms such as affirmative action, reparations etc. some would kick up a fuss.   

[object-lesson]

It's amazing. For every average white male that suddenly realises that the system is rigged or life has become meaningless or something it seems like 20% of them, empathise, understand and want to build solidarity with historically disenfranchised people.  Build towards a fairer future or some shit. The rest try to justify their historical and cultural superiority in one form or another. Yet we're supposed to think that their fall back position isn't a choice? That the lefties and minorities are supposed to roll out the carpet, can try to change their mind and make them feel good again? Welcome to the Terrordome, muthafuckers.

Just like to mention that female people make up approx 51% of the population.

I think the idea that males shouldn't feel superior to other males but should 'come off the partisan political script' and talk to each other is a good one. Jordan Peterson has hardly any good answers about how to do that though. But there are also leftie males who are in denial about the problems on their own side and would rather chant 'Trump Trump Trump' or 'Peterson Peterson Peterson' etc, all thread long.

[Mister Six]

Sexism is a political ideology, what does it matter how ironic those lyrics are? Why are these groups choosing to express their 'edginess' in violent woman-hating rather than racism? The majority of rapes and sexual assaults are unreported, as is most domestic violence. There's a hidden war and that culture is one more overt expression of it that covers itself in 'lulz'.

Doesn't make your likening of it to neo-nazi bands, or attempt to make this the central problem of the latest shooting any more absurd.

Would you be saying this if they were singing songs glorifying violence against black people?

Yeah. I mean, I listen to rappers who talk about murdering gay people and they actually mean it, so it would be a bit hypocritical not to.

[Paul Calf]

Well yes. In the binary social media world of #cancelled / not cancelled, Peterson has always stuck out a little bit to me, as someone whose conclusions are highly suspect, but who seems to have at least thought his way there. As opposed to, say, Harvey Weinstein, who just liked to rape people because he could get away with it. Again though, I'm saying that without knowing much of anything about him.

"Better than Harvey Weinstein" is a low bar to clear.

[phantom_power]

Peterson is very good at using valid points, which are usually glaringly obvious anyway, as a delivery mechanism, or masking agent, for his more ridiculous anti-progressive bullshit