Author Topic: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]  (Read 5254 times)

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #180 on: August 09, 2019, 12:38:54 PM »
We don't need these post-religious babblers to guide us. Even if all he was saying was golden he should still fuck off for turning himself into a priest.

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #181 on: August 09, 2019, 03:26:03 PM »
Quote
Would you be saying this if they were singing songs glorifying violence against black people?

Yeah. I mean, I listen to rappers who talk about murdering gay people and they actually mean it, so it would be a bit hypocritical not to.

'Listen[ing] to' is not the same as denying they work to influence and reinforce homophobic ways of thinking that have consequences. I don't know the specific rappers you're referring to, but it's pretty clear that the Dancehall song 'Boom Bye Bye' for example helped facilitate real violence. It was largely appealing to pre-existing culturally embedded prejudices but also indulged and amplified them.

Just to clarify - if there were a music genre centred around young white men known as say, 'lynchcore', which had lyrics glorifying hanging black people from trees, mutilating their bodies and disemboweling them, would you be dismissing it as just a bunch of people having 'lulz'?

Mister Six

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #182 on: August 09, 2019, 03:31:17 PM »
If the intention was the same as pornogrind, yes. I wouldn't approve of it, of course, but intent matters.

But just to reiterate, again: this pornogrind thing a total sideshow. How many mass shooters listen to pornogrind? How many murderers or rapists listen to pornogrind? It's an irrelevance. The fact that it's not even turned up before now in any of America's previous thousands of mass shootings says something about its influence and cultural cachet.

The dancehall song had a bad effect, but again the dancehall song came from someone who actually meant it, and the audience knew that. So a different thing, and another irrelevant argument.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 03:42:39 PM by Mister Six »

Mister Six

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #183 on: August 09, 2019, 03:57:59 PM »
I mean, if you wanted to find a linking media factor between white young wanker shooters, I'm sure it would be Rick & Morty. There's more of a case of banning that than pornocore.

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #184 on: August 09, 2019, 03:59:59 PM »
I'm sure there are pornogrind fans in the UK and plenty of other countries with no spree shooters.

Mister Six

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #185 on: August 09, 2019, 04:00:35 PM »
Aye, also that. Same argument against video games being the root cause...

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #186 on: August 09, 2019, 04:33:02 PM »
I don't think those are particularly sensible arguments - if only because a naive look at the stats probably does show a remarkably high predictive value from substantial interest in pornogrind to a spree-shooter compared to video games and Rick and Morty. There's far fewer people interested in pornogrind compared either of the latter, of course. (So you could probably do the same for any sufficiently niche interest of any spree-shooter.)

I think you'd be hard pressed to suggest that there isn't a relationship between interest in pornogrind and spree-shooting in this bloke's case. I think the same is true of playing Doom (and making rubbish levels for it) and Columbine in the case of Eric Harris, for that matter.

I don't think that there's a strong and direct causal link from one to the other, however.


Mister Six

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #187 on: August 09, 2019, 04:41:49 PM »
One spree shooter in, I dunno, a couple of million pornogrind fans is neither a statistically significant number nor a figure with a high predictive value.

In any case you've got it backwards - you don't look at the population of X fans and see how many of them have committed spree killings, you look at spree killers and see how many of them are X fans.

And while I agree that this guy's interest in pornogrind is probably directly linked to his hatred for women and urge to maim and kill, that doesn't in any way suggest that pornogrind forms some kind of threat to public health or it likely to provide a significant contributing factor to other mass murders.

(I don't think Rick and Morty inspires people to kill either, for the record.)

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #188 on: August 09, 2019, 04:43:57 PM »
In any case you've got it backwards - you don't look at the population of X fans and see how many of them have committed spree killings, you look at spree killers and see how many of them are X fans.
No, you absolutely don't do that. There's a decent chance that almost all spree-killers liked, I don't know, The Office (US) - but that doesn't make it a good predictor of spree-killing.

What we're interested in is the difference in probability that someone will become a spree-shooter, given that they're into pornogrind/Rick and Morty/The Office (US).

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #189 on: August 09, 2019, 04:56:06 PM »
One spree shooter in, I dunno, a couple of million pornogrind fans is [not] a figure with a high predictive value.
Well, no. But still far higher than videogames or Rick and Morty, which were the examples given to show the ridiculousness of the claim.

Mister Six

  • Half-masted, bass-boosted, sling-backed
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2019, 05:01:23 PM »
No, you absolutely don't do that. There's a decent chance that almost all spree-killers liked, I don't know, The Office (US) - but that doesn't make it a good predictor of spree-killing.

What we're interested in is the difference in probability that someone will become a spree-shooter, given that they're into pornogrind/Rick and Morty/The Office (US).

Well yes, but you didn't say ”contributing predictive factor". Although, again, only one spree killer appears to have shown an interest so it can be discounted as a tool for prediction.

(You've still got it the wrong way around though.)

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #191 on: August 09, 2019, 05:10:57 PM »
I said "predictive value from substantial interest in pornogrind to a spree-shooter".

I really haven't got it the wrong way round.

Zetetic

  • Burying isn't the same as killing.
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2019, 05:15:06 PM »
Although, again, only one spree killer appears to have shown an interest so it can be discounted as a tool for prediction.
This suggests that it's likely to have a low sensitivity and a high false negative rate. (Which given that spree-shooting is obviously somewhat heterogeneous, is almost a given.)

It doesn't tell us anything about the positive predictive value or false discovery rate (without knowing more about the population of pornogrind performers).

The PPV, I reckon, is likely to be higher for "is a pornogrind performer" than "plays videogames" or "is a fan of Rick and Morty". (And if there's fewer than about 30,000 male 16-65 pornogrind performers in the US, you I think can crawl into "statistically significant" with some contortion - which is missing the point of course.)

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2019, 10:27:30 PM »
Have we done this yet?



Apparently none of the survivors old enough to talk wanted to speak to him.

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2019, 11:46:20 PM »
For light relief, this is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on Spiked, which is saying quite a lot. It's fun when O'Neill takes one of his usual wonderfully predictable positions on something and stretches it so it breaks into a thousand beautiful fragments of insanity.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/06/el-paso-was-a-vile-act-of-eco-terrorism/


Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #195 on: August 10, 2019, 12:23:08 AM »
That article is an absolute fucking journey, I was gasping for air during the last few paragraphs

weekender

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #196 on: August 10, 2019, 12:27:43 AM »
Someone do me!

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #197 on: August 10, 2019, 12:45:54 AM »
For once O'Neil has had to deviate from the template to get that sweet Koch money and Lord it's shown his limitations.

chveik

  • i will pay good money for a decent personal text
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #198 on: August 10, 2019, 12:48:06 AM »
wow I thought it was sarcastic at first

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2019, 12:59:22 AM »
For once O'Neil has had to deviate from the template to get that sweet Koch money and Lord it's shown his limitations.



Its nowhere near a publishable standard for any public fora

A parody of liberal journalistic think pieces? Nah, just vomited out thoughtless guff for cash.

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #200 on: August 10, 2019, 03:26:38 AM »
Have we done this yet?




i don't like it. not a big fan of this trump fella at all tbh.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #201 on: August 10, 2019, 07:00:50 AM »
This is INSANE. "Hrm, multiple mass shootings last week - best make sure this doesn't impede my RIGHT to walk into a Walmart wearing body armour while carrying a rifle." Who the fuck thinks like this? Who wants to live in a country where people feel it's their right to swan about a fucking shop carrying a rifle? The gun obsession over there is a mental illness. It defies all logic.

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #202 on: August 10, 2019, 07:04:08 AM »
This is INSANE. "Hrm, multiple mass shootings last week - best make sure this doesn't impede my RIGHT to walk into a Walmart wearing body armour while carrying a rifle." Who the fuck thinks like this? Who wants to live in a country where people feel it's their right to swan about a fucking shop carrying a rifle? The gun obsession over there is a mental illness. It defies all logic.

Lunacy. Hope he gets the book thrown at him.

Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #203 on: August 10, 2019, 08:43:12 AM »
Give them ALL machine guns and get this over with. All out civil war. Poor vs Rich. Black, Asian & Latino vs White. Men vs Women. Reds vs Blues. Kids vs Grown-Ups. Battle Royale. Someone will come out on top and they can take the country forward. Do that in every country by the end of 2020 and you solve the environmental crisis overnight. No more war. No more prejudice. No more politics. The Earth will regenerate itself and animals will be running around having a great time.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

  • Are we human? Or are we toilet
    • http://jackanderton.jamendo.net/
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #204 on: August 10, 2019, 08:56:50 AM »
Awful post but this bit

Quote
animals will be running around having a great time.

Totally made it all worthwhile

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #205 on: August 10, 2019, 09:03:03 AM »
Would those animals be oysters or clams?

Blumf

  • Not long now
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Re: Two mass shootings in America [split topic]
« Reply #206 on: August 10, 2019, 09:54:34 AM »
This is INSANE.

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He was taken into custody without incident after another shopper held him at gunpoint

The system works!