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Two mass shootings in America [split topic]

Started by jobotic, August 03, 2019, 10:12:18 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Zetetic

These 5.8 million people don't account for many of the actual denials of sales, on the basis of having a NICS record, which is also interesting.

(But there is some evidence that those denials do reduce suicides.)

Ferris

Quote from: Zetetic on August 05, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
Hmm. Although this bloke, in fairness, probably does qualify from what we know.

I'll try to be less irritating - I think it's interesting that trying to answer the question more fully ultimately grounds out in restrictions that seem trivially open to abuse if you don't have a fairly high-level of trust in the government.

The second biggest category of people in the "National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)" is now mental health. I wonder what the demographics of those 5.8 million people look like.

Sorry, yes - I completely agree this person qualifies based on what we know. I also agree that the restrictions have an openness to abuse - not much you can do about that really, though adding more restrictions reduces the number of abuses that are possible. Just because you can abuse them, you should still add as many as possible.

Again, to be clear - I think the restrictions are a good thing. I think the NICS is not super useful, because I can still go to a gun show and buy whatever I like via private sale because there is no enforced background check. I can leave whatever I buy lying around in an infant school because a lot of states do not have safe storage laws. I can leave it loaded with a 100 round magazine because those are legal in the majority of states. In any organized country, I'd have broken a dozen laws doing that.

In the US, that is completely fine. In a lot of states, after buying my private sale firearm (sans background check) and loading it up, I can hide it under my jacket and wander into the nearest municipality for a couple of beers - in some states (I believe Ohio is one?) I don't even need to hide it under my jacket as open carry is unlicensed. That is completely ass-backwards. If I tried that with my firearms in the UK/Canada, I'd be facing criminal charges and lose my licenses (and rightly so). The restrictions (and people's attitudes to restrictions) are just completely out of wack in the US, that was my point - I may not have done a good job of outlining it though.

Zetetic

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on August 05, 2019, 11:02:39 PM
though adding more restrictions reduces the number of abuses that are possible.
Oh, no - I meant open to abuse by the government.

I'm not sure how I feel about the equivalent of simply being "sectioned" being used to deny people what is ostensibly a fundamental right.

(Well, sort of not that bothered because I don't think it should be a fundamental right.)

Ferris

Quote from: Zetetic on August 05, 2019, 11:05:07 PM
Oh, no - I meant open to abuse by the government.

I'm not sure how I feel about the equivalent of simply being "sectioned" being used to deny people what is ostensibly a fundamental right.

(Well, sort of not that bothered because I don't think it should be a fundamental right.)

Ohhhh I see. I agree with you but to be honest I'd rather err on that side than not.

Spudgun

By far the biggest atrocity in all this is the confused soundbyte Trump delivered in his address:

"Mental illness and hate pull the trigger, not the gun." (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49240310)

I mean, that line just doesn't make any sense at all. 'The gun didn't pull the trigger, everyone. All of you who were saying that the gun pulled the trigger are wrong, because it didn't. Guns aren't a problem because they don't pull the trigger. The anti-gun lobby are always going on about guns pulling the trigger, but they don't.' I know what he's insinuating, but how did he get that so wrong? I'm sure I can't be the only one who noticed this.

This is the sort of thing that, after digesting the news of such tragedies, really pushes me over the edge for some reason. I think I've hit the "How come everyone's mad except me?" phase.

Zetetic

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on August 05, 2019, 11:14:11 PM
Ohhhh I see. I agree with you but to be honest I'd rather err on that side than not.
In practice, I assume it's now not that controversial because 1) private sale, as you point out and 2) who NICS actually covers.

I wonder if someone could FOI the FBI for "race" stats. That's part of each individual's record - wonder if it's structured or not.

Urinal Cake

Quote from: Spudgun on August 05, 2019, 11:21:44 PM
By far the biggest atrocity in all this is the confused soundbyte Trump delivered in his address:

"Mental illness and hate pull the trigger, not the gun." (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49240310)

I mean, that line just doesn't make any sense at all. 'The gun didn't pull the trigger, everyone. All of you who were saying that the gun pulled the trigger are wrong, because it didn't. Guns aren't a problem because they don't pull the trigger. The anti-gun lobby are always going on about guns pulling the trigger, but they don't.' I know what he's insinuating, but how did he get that so wrong? I'm sure I can't be the only one who noticed this.

This is the sort of thing that, after digesting the news of such tragedies, really pushes me over the edge for some reason. I think I've hit the "How come everyone's mad except me?" phase.
It's a rephrasing of, 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'
In this case a subclass of people who are mentally ill and/or ideologically driven by hate. Politicians won't touch pieces of metal but they'll try a bit harder regulating and characterising the human experience.

Spudgun

Quote from: Urinal Cake on August 06, 2019, 12:05:01 AM
It's a rephrasing of, 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'
Yes, but a rephrasing which takes a lurch in logic halfway through and ultimately doesn't really mean what Trump was insinuating. In his mangled English, he's essentially said, 'The gun didn't pull the trigger,' like that's the very argument his opponents have been making. In fact, most people who detest violence and have a shred of human decency about them see mental illness and hate as excellent reasons for every Tom, Dick and Harry not to have easy access to guns, and yet those are the very thing he's citing in defence of them. "Mental illness and hate pull the trigger, not the gun." All I can picture is a gun holding a gun, but refusing to fire it because he doesn't wish any harm.

Maybe it really is just me after all. That is the most rational explanation.

Quote
Politicians won't touch pieces of metal but they'll try a bit harder regulating and characterising the human experience.
"Sic semper erat, et sic semper erit."

(Pretentious? Mihi?)

Barry Admin

Curious to see - during that live address - that Trump still gets overtaken by the crazy sniffing and cottonmouth. Best bit at 19 seconds in on the bbc news link above, where he seems to spontaneously ejaculate while trying to say "real bipartisan solutions."

What a choker.

Barry Admin


Head Gardener



Cuellar

I think it should be harder than it currently is to buy a gun in the United States of America.

?

Quote from: Head Gardener on August 06, 2019, 10:37:20 AM


Very hard for a woman to break into the traditionally male dominated area of spree killing. We need more role models for young girls.

Captain Z

Quote from: Cuellar on August 06, 2019, 10:45:01 AM
I think it should be harder than it currently is to buy a gun in the United States of America.

?

Why do you hate freedom so much? I bet you would prefer to live under shamima law.


Blumf

Quote from: DistressedArea on August 06, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
Very hard for a woman to break into the traditionally male dominated area of spree killing. We need more role models for young girls.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube_headquarters_shooting

Points for style (choice of target and clothing)

sponk

Quote from: Spudgun on August 05, 2019, 11:21:44 PM
By far the biggest atrocity in all this is the confused soundbyte Trump delivered in his address:

"Mental illness and hate pull the trigger, not the gun." (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49240310)

I mean, that line just doesn't make any sense at all. 'The gun didn't pull the trigger, everyone. All of you who were saying that the gun pulled the trigger are wrong, because it didn't. Guns aren't a problem because they don't pull the trigger. The anti-gun lobby are always going on about guns pulling the trigger, but they don't.' I know what he's insinuating, but how did he get that so wrong? I'm sure I can't be the only one who noticed this.

This is the sort of thing that, after digesting the news of such tragedies, really pushes me over the edge for some reason. I think I've hit the "How come everyone's mad except me?" phase.

Obviously Trump is going to deflect away from the possible role his rhetoric plays in events like this, but he could be right here. This guy spent years seeking help, complaining about something in him that caused rage and compelled him to commit violence. One day he carried out a mass shooting in Texas and a brain tumor was discovered during his autopsy. I've heard experts say it could have been the cause of his violent behaviour. If the tumor was removed maybe he'd have been a lovely guy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Obviously this is speculation, these shooters could just be evil and racist, not mental.

sponk

Quote from: Mister Six on August 04, 2019, 01:29:44 PM
What's your source for that? Because there's no agreed upon definition for "mass shooting", so that "statistic" depends entirely on how the person coming up with it wants to portray such incidents.

And the damage from mass shootings isn't limited to fatalities - you've also got crippling injuries and disabilities, injuries that cause bankruptcy due to lack of healthcare coverage or lead or people losing their jobs because of time taken off work, PTSD for injured victims and witnesses alike, and emotional damage to the friends and family of all involved (including the shooters).

So no, it's not worth remembering what you said because what you said is bollocks.

Yes, my point was that mass shootings are horrific, but they're only a small piece of the bigger picture. As for your second paragraph, all of that can be applied to regular shootings, suicide attempts, failed and successful too.

José

sad to see the alt-right dismissing connor betts as a leftist. exactly how many black people do you need to shoot before these nobheads will accept you as "redpilled" and let you into their treehouse?


Flouncer

Quote from: Blumf on August 06, 2019, 02:35:49 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube_headquarters_shooting

Points for style (choice of target and clothing)

She was fucking piss-poor! The only person she actually managed to kill was herself. Much like professional snooker, I'm sure there are plenty of women who would be perfectly capable of competing alongside men, but there just isn't the infrastructure to properly support and encourage female competitors. Hopefully one day we'll have a real breakthrough female spree killer who will open the floodgates and inspire a generation of women to go out there and start putting holes in people.

Quote from: sponk on August 06, 2019, 03:10:15 PM
Obviously Trump is going to deflect away from the possible role his rhetoric plays in events like this, but he could be right here. This guy spent years seeking help, complaining about something in him that caused rage and compelled him to commit violence. One day he carried out a mass shooting in Texas and a brain tumor was discovered during his autopsy. I've heard experts say it could have been the cause of his violent behaviour. If the tumor was removed maybe he'd have been a lovely guy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Obviously this is speculation, these shooters could just be evil and racist, not mental.

Mental health probably played a huge role in these shootings, but it's not like Trump actually cares. He's using "mental health" as a deflection. If he truly cared, he'd be looking to get mental healthcare reformed as a matter of urgency.

object-lesson

Quote from: Head Gardener on August 06, 2019, 10:37:20 AM


On that theme:

https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-toxic-masculinity-is-tied-to-terrorism/

If the people responsible for background checks followed the advice there - which hardly has to be restricted specifically to domestic violence - Connor Betts wouldn't have been able legally to acquire the guns he used to kill nine people.


Dex Sawash

Quote from: Cuellar on August 06, 2019, 10:45:01 AM
I think it should be harder than it currently is to buy a gun in the United States of America.

?

I pretty goddamned hard right fucking now, not sure what you expect

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Just, will you please keep an eye on it and go easy on the uncompetitive rates of interest? If you can, cheers

object-lesson

Quote from: DistressedArea on August 06, 2019, 08:26:25 PM


True, but you can ignore the dead-weight term 'toxic' and she still makes a very good argument.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: Spudgun on August 05, 2019, 11:21:44 PM
By far the biggest atrocity in all this is the confused soundbyte Trump delivered in his address:

"Mental illness and hate pull the trigger, not the gun." (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49240310)

I mean, that line just doesn't make any sense at all. 'The gun didn't pull the trigger, everyone. All of you who were saying that the gun pulled the trigger are wrong, because it didn't. Guns aren't a problem because they don't pull the trigger. The anti-gun lobby are always going on about guns pulling the trigger, but they don't.' I know what he's insinuating, but how did he get that so wrong? I'm sure I can't be the only one who noticed this.

This is the sort of thing that, after digesting the news of such tragedies, really pushes me over the edge for some reason. I think I've hit the "How come everyone's mad except me?" phase.

I noticed it. Who wouldn't. What is worrying is that he seemed to be reading from a script. It was similar to a high schooler writing a speech without checking what they wrote.

BlodwynPig


phantom_power

Am I being too cynically to be pissed off with Young Cool Gay Vicar Pete shoe-horning his military service into this tweet?

https://twitter.com/PeteButtigieg/status/1158814471923654657